what the hell pixoto. images paused the moment they are uploaded. fix this damned site already!

  • 2
  • Question
  • Updated 5 years ago
Merged

This conversation has been merged. Please reference the main conversation: Why are my images always getting paused..?

what the hell Pixoto! why are images being paused the moment of upload? fix this damn site already and do away with the duels. let people pick the photos they want. your algorithms are not working!
Photo of Margie MacPherson

Margie MacPherson

  • 277 Posts
  • 10 Reply Likes

Posted 5 years ago

  • 2
Photo of Margie MacPherson

Margie MacPherson

  • 277 Posts
  • 10 Reply Likes
do away with the dueling and let people vote the images they want. your system only benefits a few of THE SAME PEOPLE.
Photo of Margie MacPherson

Margie MacPherson

  • 277 Posts
  • 10 Reply Likes
this is a perpetual issue that you're not addressing. blatantly ignoring the chronic complainers. ha!
Photo of Susan Hogan

Susan Hogan

  • 628 Posts
  • 89 Reply Likes
Yeah, super frustrating. I am not claiming to be the world's greatest photographer, but it seems highly suspect that image after image of mine needs to be resubmitted a half dozen times, getting paused after the first 6 votes, losing 5 duels in a row, only to eventually go on to be well into the 600s. Part of this is not having a Pro account - because then I would have 100 duels and eventually it would even out, I think. But it seems pretty implausible that virtually every image I submit goes through this process, eating up my credits, before it gets an honest start.
Photo of Margie MacPherson

Margie MacPherson

  • 277 Posts
  • 10 Reply Likes
which leads back to my complaint: how the hell can an image be paused the moment it is uploaded? i mean i upload, look at my profile in an instant and the image is paused. BS!
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
At the risk of getting smashed, bashed and totally mauled, I don't think it is the concept of dueling that is the issue here.

The issue here is with the owner of this site. Consider all the open loopholes:

1. Followings - In order for you to acquire enough images into a specific
category so that you win $150\ week you have to have enough followers
willing to supply 7,500 images:

Cash Prize Scale for each category
Min # of Images per week Prize
1000 $20
2500 $50
5000 $100
7500 $150

So, naturally, people like Carl Sieswono Purwanto followers 4197 not
always because they like his work but because they have to supply
enough images per week to support his needs to have enough images
in that category so that he goes home with the $150

Of course, there are 100s of other who attempt to do the same -- which is
why all the images look the same and are the driving force as to why most
of us real photographers.don't stand a chance on this site to ever see
image of the week.

7500 x 52 = 390,000
30 categories = 1,070,000

That's the yearly max the people making money need to see in each
category in order to make the weekly prize cut.

So, it should come to no surprise that the annual increases in the
amount of images come out to close to the ones below:

1,070,000 2010 - 2011
2,140,000 2011 - 2012
3,280,000 2012 - 2013
4,560,000 2013 - 2014
6,120,000 2014 - 2015

This is really not a lot of money. About $107,000. So, to add revenue
there is the notion that $70\year to be a pro member would generate
an additional revenue of $700,000. 10,000 * 70.

Furthermore, additional revenues are generated with the contests and
the sales of framed prints.

But that is not the real problem here. The problem is with the built in
and often unanswered questions. Or worse, canned responses,

Why does this happen? Because the cost of rewriting the code and
making adjustments to the system in place could easily cost more than
site has made or will make for the next 10 years.

Just fixing the wrong category images alone is a profit hit this site can't
afford. So, asking to make the sub-categories or having prizes in the
sub - categories is like asking for a 120 mile per hour fright train to stop
on a dime.

2. Duels - Well all know that certain photographers of flower shots get 800+
scores? They do but did you also know that this involves over 200 duels?
It does. In fact, the top flower shot has a 144 wins / 58 losses.

Some of us don't even get 144 duels out of our submitted images.

But we all have see the ratio of 58/144 because at 5 duels it is
1.45 to 3.564356435643564 or rounded off, 1:4. And 202 of us who
provided this individual with the right to be pick of the litter can only
thank ourselves.

3. Photography verses digital art. Between 1970 and 1996, I had over 2000
images published and 12 cover shots. I've had more U.S. Army attack
helicopter images published during that time than anyone else in the
world.

I'm still having to spend $3.00 at Starbucks for a cup of coffee.

Anyway, I learned how to get great chopper shots by over exposing my
images, under developing the negatives and then use a higher contrast
paper to achieve the helicopter details I needed.

I consider this to not be digital art but processing technique. The sky is
3 stops higher at mid day then the darkest spot on the ground and a fill
in flash will only help with an effective range of from 3 to 12 feet.

The candle light value of 4:1 dictates policy.

Anyway, you become a master at Photography by mastering light.
You put your own spin on it by controlling it like a brush stroke on a
canvas. Warm colors bring things forward. Cool colors push things
back.

So what, exactly, is digital art? Anything that has been added to an image
is digital art. This includes composite images, color enhancements that
were not in the original image, objects that would not normally be seen
as an organized pattern or any image makes the materials more
attractive than it would normally appear is digital art.

In-other-words, if it isn't normal, it isn't a photograph.
Photo of Margie MacPherson

Margie MacPherson

  • 277 Posts
  • 10 Reply Likes
you're one smart cookie, redwar. and i like you. you make sense!!
Photo of Susan Hogan

Susan Hogan

  • 628 Posts
  • 89 Reply Likes
Guy, why would you get your coffee from Starbucks? Its like voting for those water lilies... Trendy, but tastes so awful and overdone....
Photo of Tim Hall

Tim Hall

  • 486 Posts
  • 228 Reply Likes
Hey Mr. Redwar...You are indeed a master photographer...My favorite quote by Ansel Adams goes like this, "A master photographer chooses his exposure values based upon what he is going to do in the post process. If you are choosing your exposure values based on anything else...then you don't know what you are doing". Yep, Ansel Adams said that. After reading about your helicopter technique I thought you would be someone who would understand and appreciate that point of view.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
Hi Tim, thanks! I needed that :)
Photo of Tim Hall

Tim Hall

  • 486 Posts
  • 228 Reply Likes
You're very welcome, Ya' know, I would never do this, but i would love to upload the images of several of the old Master's of Photography to today's internet sites and see just how much respect they might get from the average member and see what kind of images would get more likes then they do. Folks like Henri Cartier-Bresson and Ansel Adams they were virtually alone in their fields at the time. Ansel wasn't competing and over run by 97,000 and three tourists with cell phones and point and shoots in the Yosemite valley.

The internet is a curse and a blessing, Would love to have seen the results if Elvis Presley had been born in '95 and made his first attempt at singing on Youtube today rather than in the record yourself booth at Sun Records...Not saying he would fail, I would just be interested whether he would go viral or get lost among the on line masses.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
I have two images in this collection:

http://www.scadmoa.org/art/exhibition...

Donated by Shirrel L. Rhoades, the photographs on view include iconic examples from pioneering 19th-century practitioners and from major 20th-century photographers who wielded their cameras to capture images of arresting landscapes, richly textured narratives, elegant fashion scenes, singular still lifes and powerful portraits. Photographers include Brady, Nadar, Cartier-Bresson, Adams, Mapplethorpe, Weston, Cunningham and other celebrated masters.

That plus $3.00 gets you a cup of coffee from Starbucks. LOL.

Anyway, the majority of my images that I'm taking currently are of the photojournalist type with little thought of making them works of art.

And,yes, Tom, I will never post one of those up here for a bunch of credit driven mouse clickers.
Photo of Tim Hall

Tim Hall

  • 486 Posts
  • 228 Reply Likes
Pretty cool, love to see folks justly rewarded.
Photo of Tim Nicholson

Tim Nicholson

  • 24 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Fantastic and really helpful post Margie. Absolutely all I needed to know to abandon Pixoto for good.
Photo of Margie MacPherson

Margie MacPherson

  • 277 Posts
  • 10 Reply Likes
yet we still come back to the same o'l, same o'l! i'm enjoying ViewBug's site and format much, much better. i guess i'm humoring myself at Pixoto, although it's really no laughing matter!
Photo of Tim Hall

Tim Hall

  • 486 Posts
  • 228 Reply Likes
Margie and Redwar, you all seem to make the most sense around here. I have been here for three years and have gotten three thousand awards, close to forty firsts and Judges awards, I too am no master, but I have over 125 pics in the 600 to 700 point range...BUT! ...I haven't gotten over the 550 or so point range on any image since the algorithm change, In fact most of my efforts get paused after 5 or 6 duels!

This means I am either losing my previous passion and skill, or I was never good enough to win the duels in the first place. Or something is wrong with the Pixoto system...Either way, I am not discouraged, I am getting along in years and Pixoto was my introduction to on line photo sites. Sadly contemplating a farewell to Pixoto as my photos can no longer seem to pass the new pause requirements, while the fake water drops continue to soar. I will probably keep my profile up as I have sold a few pics here, and will keep an eye out for new features or improvements, However uploading right into pause has little attraction for me.

I also enjoy VB, and 500pix. I just found Gurushots, kind of like Pixoto, but voting consists of you getting 100 images in a session and you are to vote for your favorite 10 shots of the hundred, Then you get another 100 to pick 10 from...and you can view all 100 as many times as you like before picking your favorite 10. They have themed contests as with Pixoto, but there is no money prize, just awards and status rankings. All is free at Gurushots.

Also I just found National Geographic's "Your Shot"...It's free to get a profile and they call their contests "assignments" You submit your shots to their assignments and the winner actually gets published in a Nat Geo magazine, and\ or gets the magazine cover shot...(Sorry to say, I haven't been published by NatGeo yet...ha ha)...But one never knows! It's nice just to have a small space to display one's pics in the NatGeo world even if one doesn't win.

Whatever I decide I won't miss the all fake water drops!!!!
Photo of Tim Hall

Tim Hall

  • 486 Posts
  • 228 Reply Likes
Hi Mr, MMP, I am talking about the water itself being fake, not someone who sprays real H2O water on their subjects. That is fine by me. I am talking about drops that are made of chemical substances other than water, If that is what you do then we will respectfully agree to disagree...
Photo of Renos Hadjikyriacou

Renos Hadjikyriacou

  • 303 Posts
  • 155 Reply Likes
@redwar:
"In order for you to acquire enough images into a specific
category so that you win $150\ week you have to have enough followers
willing to supply 7,500 images"

"people like Carl Sieswono Purwanto followers 4197 not
always because they like his work but because they have to supply
enough images per week to support his needs to have enough images
in that category so that he goes home with the $150 "

I am simple-minded and naive but how do you really think this grand theory de facto works ???
Photo of Jasenka

Jasenka, Official Rep

  • 18196 Posts
  • 1319 Reply Likes
We never had case where image would be paused as soon as it was submitted, without any duels. Earliest image is paused when it has at least 6 duels, so we would appreciate link to image(s) that is paused prior to first 6 duels so we can check what the issue is.
Photo of Tim Hall

Tim Hall

  • 486 Posts
  • 228 Reply Likes
Hi Jasenka, I think what is being described here is this...I upload an image to my profile, and during the time it takes me to navigate away from the upload page, to my profile page, and then bring up the image I just uploaded, That images has already lost what few duels it now takes to get paused...Therefore it has been paused before I have even seen it...prompting folks to say the image was paused as soon as it was uploaded or, "Immediately".

An image losing enough duels to get paused before it even shows up on your profile page is fairly "immediate" wouldn't you agree?
Photo of Susan Hogan

Susan Hogan

  • 628 Posts
  • 89 Reply Likes
Happens exactly as Tim describes, day after day, pic after pic.
Photo of Jasenka

Jasenka, Official Rep

  • 18196 Posts
  • 1319 Reply Likes
Hello Tim, since duels are now gained rather quickly images can get paused quickly too, but never before image has at least 6 duels.
Photo of Tim Nicholson

Tim Nicholson

  • 24 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
You're STILL avoiding the main issues Jasenka. If you'd like me to put them more clearly for you I'd be happy to do so, but I'm fairly sure it would be a waste of my time, since I already know you've heard them many times before, and yet you just refuse to acknowledge them.
Photo of Tim Nicholson

Tim Nicholson

  • 24 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Jasenka - you know full well that the issues are MUCH bigger than that....my last two images were posted in Abstract/Fireworks, and were both paused after six duels. The fact that they were, within six duels, duelled against images in both cases that were reported for being incorrectly classified, just adds to the pain of dealing with the inequalities of your site. You reward, financially!, those who exploit the rules, much to the detriment of every 'normal' user. Until I hear from a reliable third party that you've got this in hand, I won't be uploading any more images to your site. That's a pity, because you had a great idea when you set up, but offering money for breaking the rules just screwed the whole thing up. Stop the rewards, and make any financial gain from the site SOLELY by means of sales of images in whatever form, and ALL the problems will go away. Who in their right mind would want to buy several thousand images of the same purple and yellow water lily.
Photo of Susan Hogan

Susan Hogan

  • 628 Posts
  • 89 Reply Likes
As has been discussed ad nauseam, six duels is no where near enough to determine the likelihood of an image's success. If the average number of duels is 100, its only six percent. Its pretty darned easy to hit a string of voters who either don't pay attention or are voting up (or down) images, and have several losses in a row. I have two images right now at the top of the leader board which both had to be resubmitted at least once, and that's just today. I totally get that this is Pixoto's way of frustrating members into paying for Pro accounts, but if your mission is to have the best photos at the top of the board, its a total fail. Members here are constantly complaining about this. You might think at some point, you people would listen.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
At the risk of self crucifixion, actually within 6 is possible. Allow me to explain.

Please read before clicking the I hate you button.

Below is a real time list of scores:

A 0 to 1 gives you a score of roughly 14.
A 1 to 0 gives you a score of roughly 44.
A 1 to 1 gives you a score of roughly 56.
A 3 to 2 gives you a score of roughly 144.
A 3 to 3 gives you a score of roughly 151.
A 4 to 4 gives you a score of roughly 191.
A 5 to 4 gives you a score of roughly 223.

A 0 to 1 gives you a score of roughly 14.
A 0 to 2 gives you a score of roughly 27.
A 0 to 3 gives you a score of roughly 36.
A 1 to 4 gives you a score of roughly 87.
A 3 to 7 gives you a score of roughly 169.

A 1 to 1 gives you a score of roughly 55.
A 1 to 2 gives you a score of roughly 66.
A 1 to 3 gives you a score of roughly 76.
A 1 to 4 gives you a score of roughly 83.
A 2 to 4 gives you a score of roughly 122.
A 3 to 6 gives you a score of roughly 163.
A 3 to 7 gives you a score of roughly 166.

Again these are real time stats. The last is of two pumpkins sitting on some straw.
(Yeah, its got a pretty sour aroma.)

If your image was to be a real stinker, it could possibly get 6 losses and 0 wins. II think I had at least one or two...LOL.

But let me show you something:



It says there were 6 duels. Yet there are two missing. Also, 2 of the four losses are again against wrong categories.

Since similar images of the pumpkins have done much better, I have to assume, if I were one of the chosen, chances are, I would have a much better image score because all my friends would be voting for me.

Furthermore, the loss score is being played with as it could be 13, 14 or 15. When you have 100 duels, a two point spread could easily add up to an award.

Sorry, got a bit off track.

Your images don't stop dueling at 100 duels. In fact, it takes two days and 200 duels to get up to the top. And, as I pointed out, already, there is a definite ratio to the top which is 2:5 : 1 And, you would have to have that ratio stay true all the way up to the top.

What does that tell you?

I know what it tells me. It tells me that the first 6 duels can, in fact, determine he fate of your image\s. It also tells me that this site is not a managed resource and that your images will never get a true, clean duel here without it.

It also tells me that if you really want your images to soar to the top, have a friend create a contest that only you can win and then have all your friends vote for you.
Photo of Susan Hogan

Susan Hogan

  • 628 Posts
  • 89 Reply Likes
Had an interesting one today - image score dropped ten points without receiving a duel at all. Same 11 duels, same win/loss ratio, score went down ten points. Can't explain that....
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
I saw the same thing happen but wanted to take a snap of it before and after.

I think the original score was 397. Seconds later, it was down to 391. Didn't think it would be worth mentioning without proof.

So, now that you brought it up, I'm honored to let you know you are not the only one.

I think someone has built a program that knows how to change the scores.
Photo of Renos Hadjikyriacou

Renos Hadjikyriacou

  • 303 Posts
  • 155 Reply Likes
As i already mentioned @redwar::

" I am simple-minded and naive but how do you really think this grand theory de facto works ???"

You argue that ...
"In order for you to acquire enough images into a specific
category so that you win $150\ week you have to have enough followers
willing to supply 7,500 images" ..........
and .....
"people like Carl Sieswono Purwanto followers 4197 not
always because they like his work but because they have to supply
enough images per week to support his needs to have enough images
in that category so that he goes home with the $150 "

For example, I have 1500 Followers, so what can i do to motivate them to vote for my image in case it appears to them while voting?
Do i sent the concerned photo asking every single follower to start voting in duels but always skip voting when my image is not dueling until my image appears in a duel, how offen will that happen? Otherwise one of the "supplyers" photo could settle the race???

Now something to the paused images after 6 duels. Voters regulate this, if first 6 voters don`t like your photo (or you), then you will end up whith 1 win and 5 loses and an paused image that you could resubmit if you think it can do better!
Is it fair? NO it is not, but, the same applies to all other submitters.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
Followers get notified when you've submitted images. So, if they do vote on images, they can easily vote for your images or against them.

Fair dueling is not an option it is a responsibility of this site -- since the site was built on this concept -- to be fair, even and unbiased. If the site is unwilling to manage the resource, then someone will come along and they will do it right and Pixoto will become vaporoto.
Photo of Susan Hogan

Susan Hogan

  • 628 Posts
  • 89 Reply Likes
True enough. I know some folks here can submit almost anything and have it get a monster score, because their hundreds of followers see it show up in their feed and know whose image it is.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
That I also agree with but when you put up 60 images and almost all of them see 1 loss off the bat, it means that 120 images are involved or 60 of my images are dueling against each other.

To be fair, most of the time when I do place 60 images into the hopper, they do duel each other and that's just the way it goes.

I'd love to say it is bad management of resources but there's no management involved. Just a computer.

30 seconds after the 50 image submission, the smoke clears and 20 images are done. Then, within 10 minutes, 3o more images are done. After 30 minutes, I have possibly 2 that could go beyond the 500s.

After that, it is a wait until new images arrive and drive the scores back down.

For me and I'm sure for hundreds of others, you feel like this place is more of a take your money and run than a place where where your images are valued as potential stock and, ultimately, make money taking pictures.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
Here's one for you.

According to Pixoto:

347,301,562 is the amount of duels.
5,984,904 is the amount of images submitted
58 is the total average amount of duels

For each image to get 100 duels, it would require 598,490,400
Photo of Susan Hogan

Susan Hogan

  • 628 Posts
  • 89 Reply Likes
Hmmm... I wonder really, about the accuracy of that. Certainly, many images get no where near 100 duels, as they are paused after as few as 6. OTOH, some might get far more than 100, because they are paused so quickly and are resubmitted any number of times. Successful images get far in excess of 100 as well.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
Here's one for you:

https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

Says the image has 58 wins. It shows 62 images.
Says the image has 48 losses. It shows 51 images.

Also, this crap about going up against lower numbers first? The lowest number I saw was a 540. The highest, a 704. Over 60% were well above my score with less than 100 duels, too.
Photo of Jasenka

Jasenka, Official Rep

  • 18196 Posts
  • 1319 Reply Likes
Hello Redwar, when image is resubmitted imageduel history will show all duels since image is first submitted (that means duels that image had before resubmitting will be also shown).
Also when you check images, on imageduel history page, your image dueled with, scores will be as they are now, not as they were when images dueled each other. Meaning, other image could have 400 score when it dueled your image, but now, when you check imageduel history, that image can have 700 score. That doesn't mean that image had 700 score when it dueled your image.

I hope this helps.
Photo of redwar

redwar

  • 470 Posts
  • 93 Reply Likes
It does and it also shows something else you didn't mention.

The cheaters.

While going through my images that have gone up to top 20 or above, it is clear to me that my images are equal to and slightly above normal.

So, when a less than normal image goes to between 600 and 700, then I know I can focus on that person and his\her following as being the reason why the score is wrong for that quality of image.

When you have over 1000 images published, you can pretty much tell what works and what doesn't. When I see an image that shouldn't even come close to an equal or above image, I will start looking at the images he\she has submitted and I can assure you that I will let you know the photographer has images that have been pushed by popularity and not image quality.

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.