voting for bad images

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i think folks are voting for lesser quality images to improve their odds of winning....since we can see those we duel against its kinda obvious, is my work perfect NO, but no way a blurry poorly composed shot should beat a good composition that is sharp and appealing.....i don't understand...is there a way for admin to see this too? seems a bit unfair to me....
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denise johnson

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Posted 8 years ago

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Jackie

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Hope you have better luck with your request to solve this problem than I had yesterday with the same issue...

(here's the link to my post about it)
http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...

Some friends & I have discussed it, and we think that people are doing some friend/foe voting, voting down of competing images, along with just 'parking' on one side of the duel window and clicking away to get points.

It took a friend's 16 year old son less than a minute to write a script that would automatically vote in the duels (he's not actually using it, just wrote it as a sort of experiment). If the 16 year old kid has done it, you can bet others have too.

Anyway, good luck. Personally, I've had better luck on sites that have actual photographers judging the submissions as opposed to these where the public votes. Most of the 'happy snappers' that gravitate toward these sites wouldn't know a well shot image if someone slapped 'em with it...
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Jackie - couple points based on your assessment above:

1) 75% of the votes on Pixoto come from photographers who have won awards - we think we've got the best voting pool out there.
2) If you try to choose the lower ranked image so that you bring down the votes of a higher ranked image - we will catch you. We have very sophisticated algorithms to detect this. You won't know we've caught you though.
3) if you vote randomly (i.e. with a bot or software) your votes have no impact on the overall score of images and our algorithms will catch you. (but you won't know it)
4) not every vote placed on Pixoto counts the same. Some don't count at all. This is the only way we can stop the type of cheating you describe above.
5) In general, when all is said and done, Pixoto members vote remarkably closely to each other.

I hope this helps
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Nathan Cool

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christy sawyer

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I've noticed this too. I agree doesn't seem fair and why put up good stuff if it doesn't get anywhere. this has happened to me. Not that I think I'm so great but I do like my work and can't see how some other pictures win that's all.
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BF Clark

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I am sure that every photographer here has gotten frustrated over the image duels. It's puzzling to have perfectly composed image lose against images that are so obviously lacking.
But..photography is subjective and what may seem like a work of art to one person isn't to another person.
We all need to step into this realizing it costs us nothing to be here, vote see how our images stack up. Of course there are kinks to be worked out and things that probably come up daily but it is FREE so let's all have some fun here.
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Jackie

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You're right, it's free. Doesn't make it any less heartbreaking to put so much work into crafting an image just to see it lose to an obvious snapshot that had little thought or effort put into it. It's too bad that people who join these sites where the public votes seem to have little interest in learning the technical details of photography and how to 'read' a photograph...
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BF Clark

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Jackie I understand and it has happened to me as well. The problem is that you just never know who is voting for those images. Try not to let it get you down and just have fun with it if you can. : )
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Jackie

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christy sawyer

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I'm with you Jackie. The two shots don't compare at all. If I knew how to link the images I would put mine up for examples.
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Jackie

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Thanks Christy. To add a link all you do is just go to the image, copy the URL and then paste it into your post.
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Wayne Clark

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All in the eye of the beholder Jackie. My wife just submitted an awesome image of our grandson in Photoshop Art and it lost in dueling to a close up of a swimmer...different category entirely and a mediocre picture at best (not a bit biased either). We're at the voters mercy.
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Terry Gower

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I don't think its really pair to put the links up here, I happen to know who took the second shot.....and all tastes are different.
I do see badly blurred shots with over 70 wins though and it puzzles me, one in paticular.They are surrounded by excellant quality shots.
Is it because people aren't really looking at the shot, or know the person who posted it?
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Priscilla Chan

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Why are people buying votes for me and my photos got pause? I thought you buy more votes to vote for the people you think that is good to bring theirs to the top but it is the other way around? I don't understand this at all!
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christy sawyer

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You can buy votes to keep your own paused images going. Although this dosen't always help them to advance much as I have seen personally. You can also buy for someone elses photo you really like that has paused. Someone did this for me and I appreciated it.
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Priscilla Chan

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I understand the concept of buy votes to vote for great images of others. What I am saying is the system is not working right! If someone keep buying more votes of my images, why would mine get pause and no longer be in the duels. It does not make sense to me. Sorry, I am just not sure whether it is working right or not. I am still confused as you can see, LOL.
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christy sawyer

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If you buy votes to duel more I was told you only get 3 more duels that can take just seconds. Atleast that's what the help told me.........
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Priscilla Chan

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Not sure if I can stay up with this and understand. I am thinking that there is a glitch in the system. It just does not make sense to me if people like your image so much to buy more votes, then it should show up for duel more so you can get more votes, not to get pause and get to the bottom instead.
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christy sawyer

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I agree it's so frustrating . My first photo's got awards. Since then my work has been just as good and I keep getting paused or they just sit there going through duels once in awhile. I don't know what this place really wants from us............
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Priscilla Chan

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If nothing else, Christy....I do enjoy a lot of great images! I hope no one steals them from here. Yikes! That would suck if you are a professional and can make money but the work is stolen by the thieves!
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christy sawyer

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I enjoy the wonderful work on here. It motivates me to do better. I'm not professional. I don't think anyone would want to steal my images.
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christy sawyer

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by the way, I'd love to see your work. How do I find you??
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Priscilla Chan

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Christy, if you are talking about my work...I am flattered that someone likes my work! I am on FB and on another website. Email me, chanairtran@yahoo.com. On subject line, make sure you put pixoto or something or it will get to the spam box, LOL.
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Michelle Meenawong

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Priscilla, I looked for you on fb but there are many Priscilla Chan. Which one are you?
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Priscilla Chan

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I just requested you as my friend on FB. Thanks, Michelle.
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debbie del tejo

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I sometimes buy votes for photos that have been paused because I think they are great shots.........and it does not even matter that they are in the same category as mine...........it does not matter. Sometimes I think people are busy or away and dont know their shots have been paused.
Some people have done this for me...........so I pay it forward.
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Priscilla Chan

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I can't even buy votes! I don't know! It just does not give me the option. I would like to buy votes for the nice people who bought votes for me but I guess I cannot. Not sure how that works either.
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Wayne Clark

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Priscilla, if you haven't participated in any image duels, you won't have any points to buy votes with, for yourself or others. You should have had 5 or 10 points when you signed up but you have to vote to "earn" more. Hope this helps.
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Priscilla Chan

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Wayne, I did not know I have to sign up. I thought I just vote for others to get points. Then post my photos. They will go o the duels already. If people vote for you, then you get more chance to be in the duels. Otherwise, it will pause and not do anything. Am I getting it all wrong??
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Wayne Clark

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You should have "signed up" when you submitted your first photo. Unless I'm mistaken, you can't submit an image unless you join the community. At any rate, you would have been given 5 or 10 (not sure which) points when you registered but any additional points have to be earned by voting in the image duels. You then can use your points to "buy" votes for any of your images that are paused, or, buy votes for others images that are paused that you like and would like to see dueled again. You replenish your points by voting.
If an image pauses, it has to have more votes bought for it in order to duel again. Sometimes, it takes a few buys to get an image rolling so it won't pause...or sometimes it really won't help at all. Since the voting is supposedly unbiased and no one knows who they're voting for, you have to keep track of your own images to restart them if they pause. Good luck and don't give up.
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Priscilla Chan

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I signed up and voted. Then I got the points to submit my photos. What I don't understand is where do I click to buy votes for others? Does it come up randomly or on every duel? Not sure if I am blind or what, Wayne. BTW, I checked out the other site and they ask for a minimum of donation. I don't know if they are unbiased or not.
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Wayne Clark

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If you have points (or credits...I stand corrected), you will see them next to your name at the top right corner. On the leader board page, if you see an image you like and it is paused, it will have a button that looks like > (play) on the bottom left of the image. If you click on this, you have bought voting credits for that image and you should see your credits lessen by 5 credits. If you don't see the "play" arrow, the image is not paused.
What other site are you referring to? This one is completely free.

Never mind...I just saw it was the site Jackie was talking about. Haven't checked that one out yet.
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Terry Gower

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Priscilla, if you are usin IE it doesn't always work, I've had to switch to Firefox for this site
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Priscilla Chan

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I am using Firefox just for pixoto. Not sure why nothing is working, LOL. I am not worried...just a bit confused and at time, frustrated. Thanks, Terry! BTW, congrats on the win! I see some of your work and it is fabulous!!!
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Martin Dzurjanik

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Jackie

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I'm so sorry. It's so discouraging when that happens. Makes you wonder what people are thinking (or IF they are thinking). Too bad these people don't realize & appreciate the time, care, effort and HEART that goes into producing a GOOD image - all discounted with a mere click of the mouse...
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kirk kimble

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Everyone sees things differently... it's all subjective... "one person's junk is another person's treasure"...and, you're not gonna get rich on this site anyway... Just enjoy it and have fun :-) JMHO
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Priscilla Chan

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True, Kirk! I love seeing all the great photos here! There are a lot of great photographers! I especially enjoy the high fashion work which I don't see at other sites.
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Wayne Clark

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Another example;
This image
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
lost to this image.
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
Go figure!
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Jackie

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OMG! You have GOT to be kidding me!!! That's completely INSANE!

This is not a matter of 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' or 'one man's trash is another man's treasure' as Kirk pointed out above. That's just criminal. I'm actually sputtering and lost for words on that one!!!

I checked out the rest of your portfolio while I was visiting - nice stuff! Have you tried www.Shutterbugs.biz? It's one of my favorite contest sites. Top notch images and no public voting. Judges are photographers. A win there really means something.
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Wayne Clark

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Thanks Jackie. These are my wife's images and I'm damn proud of them too! She has a rare eye for a good photo. I'm not sure if she's aware of the shutterbugs' site but I will definitely tell her about it.
This particular image paused at about 140 something so I bought her some more votes and it is now at 504, so maybe it all evens out. Such a sorry state though when the really good images lose to the bad ones (not knocking anyone's work but I call it like I see it).
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Jackie

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Good shots losing to bad shots happens frequently on every site I've ever been to that allows public voting (especially true when the membership is free). The general public has little appreciation for how much work goes into a good photograph. Basically they (1) start entering every snapshot they ever took, and (2) are ignorant about what actually constitutes a good image and the kind of effort it takes to produce one. I usually refer to them as the "ooooohhhh, cute puppy!" crowd.

These voting sites are not a true measure of photographic skill, especially if you're not one of the very uppermost 'Top Gun' shooters. And even though I know that, they still get under my skin at times (especially in instances like the one you just posted). I try (and often fail) to remember that this is just 'fluff', but stuff like that is still insulting and it stings...

I have 4 images in my Pixoto portfolio that won Photo of the Day on Shutterbugs. Only ONE of them managed to get above a 600 on here. That tells ya something right there...
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Wayne Clark

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And I'm betting one of them was "The Haunt". Saw that one and absolutely loved it! You do good work Jackie.
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Jackie

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Thanks - I just got your comment on The Haunt. :)

Actually, that one is a personal favorite but I'm not sure I've even entered it into any competitions other than this one. Honestly, I've been fairly lax about entering photos into things into contests in the last year or so. I lost my Mom to cancer last January and just haven't had the heart for it since. She used to love looking at my stuff and cheering me on in contests, so entering has been kind of sad since she passed.

I have some friends on here that are wonderful photographers and they were having some fun with it so I decided about a week ago to join and see what happens...

These are my Shutterbugs wins: http://www.shutterbugs.biz/cgi-bin/se...
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Wayne Clark

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First off, my condolences on your loss. I lost my mother two years ago on Nov. 1st. and it's still painful. Maybe if you entered in her memory it would be a little easier. I believe she would be proud. I think you're too good a talent to keep it hidden.
It is fun, albeit aggravating at times. A lot of good photographers here and some really great ones but all in the spirit of fun. Hope you stick with it and do well.
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Priscilla Chan

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I am sorry to hear that you both lost your mother, Wayne and Jackie. I agreed with Wayne. Jackie, I saw your work at the other site. Great work! You are talented! Don't give up! I think most of these sites are for fun anyway. I don't think I will ever win anything but I sure enjoy all the great photos here!
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Wayne Clark

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Thank you Priscilla. I looked at your work and I don't think I would give up on winning if I were you. You have some great photos and as good a chance as anyone else and better than most.
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Priscilla Chan

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Thanks, Wayne! I am just having fun!
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Nathan Cool

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Remember, voting is left to anyone. The voting audience changes by the minute, depending on who's logged on at the time. Additionally, the negative impact on voting seems (from what I've seen) to occur at the very beginning. Once you get up to about 500 points it looks like it takes more than one loss of the same picture to have an effect; however, when an image is just starting out in a duel (at say, less than 100 points), one bad vote seems to impact it more, causing it to fail quickly. But, there is something I've learned to circumvent this problem.

Since the voting audience changes by the minute, what I've found useful is to merely resubmit my images if they don't do well in voting. I resubmit failed photos at different times of the day, and sometimes wait a day or more before resubmitting them. It requires you first delete the photos and get more points by dueling, but it has worked for me. If after submitting failing photos 3 times and they continue to fail with bad scores, chances are (IMHO), the scores are likely accurate.

As an example, the other day I submitted 3 similar photos of ice in a glass using time exposure and light painting. These 3 are currently at the top of my recent's at: http://www.pixoto.com/nathancool/recent

Upon the first submission, one pic rose to 500 points in less than an hour, where the other 2, which are nearly identical, could not even reach 200 points. I waited until the next morning, then resubmitted the failing two photos, but they were failing again. I waited a few hours and resubmitted those failed 2 again, and now they are doing well; in fact, the one that was failing the most now has the highest score of all three shots.

My advice is to resubmit failed photos, which will raise your chances of getting fair voters. If after resubmitting a few times your photos are still failing, then perhaps you need to take a closer look at your work. In fact, I'd be more than willing to critique anyone's pictures, and give my unbiased opinion on how it compares to other pics it may be failing against. Feel free to contact me with the URL's of the two pics, and I'll give you my two cents :) This, btw, is something I suggested Pixoto do for their members, allowing people to get advice from other photographers. Until they do it, I'd be more than happy to help where I can (I'm no Nat Geo photog, but I'll be happy to give my view if you'd like).

-Nathan
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sengland25

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I for one appreciate the offer of unbiased criticism of what I may be doing wrong. I love doing this, but am no professional. I find that this site makes me look at what I am doing more critically and to try harder to present a more polished image, and for that I am grateful.
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christy sawyer

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I thought you could only submit photos one time. Unless you change them up a bit.
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Terry Gower

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I wonder if the one time means you can't enter the same shot in more than one catergory?
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christy sawyer

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Maybe, don't know. Anyone else know??
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Jackie

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The answer is here in this thread:
http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...
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Wayne Clark

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As long as you delete the original image, you can re-submit it at any time, changed or not. In other words, one image, for one category, at any given time. Amazing how many don't follow this though.
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Priscilla Chan

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The way I understand is you can enter only one time in whatever category but if you delete it, you can re-upload an image for a different week or month.
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Darrin James

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Hilarious! Check this out - the aberration isn't even CLOSE to being in focus!

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Lost to

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
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christy sawyer

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Wow. what's going on here? Is it worth even putting up pictures????
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Jackie

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Crazy. I still can't believe some of the stuff people are actually voting on here...
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Michelle Meenawong

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wow, incredible. Must be a mistake. By the way the first one is really beautiful, what a peaceful place, I love it
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Ms C

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Darrin, I'm inclined to agree with you. I have no problem with an image beating another when it's simply a matter of opinion or taste, and both images have merit. But when there are technical errors and sloppy editing......then it's just plain wrong.
I do feel that there are some here that have figured out how to 'game' the system.
Because the images that I have issues with are currently in the lead, I will not post them. ....for fear of appearing like I have a case of 'sour grapes'........
but should they win...........I will.
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christy sawyer

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I guess it comes down to who is voting here. Some people like blurry photos and they don't know how to edit. That's just the way it is. It is frustrating but either accept it or hope the hosts figure out a better way of judging. That's how I have come to see it. I don't know if I will stay here tho.
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denise johnson

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i try hard not to let anything impact my judging but sometimes i regret my choice right after finally hitting the pic....like man, i should have picked the other one....doesn't happen often but it does happen....but thats generally when there are two fabulous shots, wonder if we can have a dislike both choice or like both? hmmmmm
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Priscilla Chan

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Denise, you can skip and not vote for either one of the image.
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Janette Fraser

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Check out this decision...

This won:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

against this:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

I mean.... what? And there are tons of examples.

Voting should be restricted to only those who have won awards, and untill you have won an award, your voting should either a) not count or b) count about 5 times less. If something isn't done then pixoto is going to get a bad reputation and photographers will simply vote with their feet when it comes to the site, because someone else will do the same voting concept (it's hardly difficult to program).

I vote: change the system!
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Janette Fraser

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And another thing... AFTER I'd posted the comment above, the picture of the Cat (second link) suddenly developed a darker 'band' across the top of it, which wasn't there earlier! How on earth did that happen Pixoto?

*deleting and resubmitting*
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christy sawyer

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I've seen this in my own photo duels. Like I said prior in this thread some people don't really understand photography. They think snapshots are the same. Maybe they are just starting out or don't really care, but surely you can tell a good shot from a bad one. I don't understand it myself.
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Janette Fraser

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I agree. I think there are people voting that have never considered (or been told) what basic elements they should look for in a photograph. But on the other hand - I think perhaps we can also be more proactive about education and share our experience on pixoto to improve the standard here.

Now - I'm not the best tog in the world (or even close) but I feel I'm qualified enough to comment on pictures with basic errors with constructive criticism. And I invite and would *really appreciate* anyone commenting on my work with constructive criticism as well.

Today - I've commented on 'a cat with the blue mouth', 'the cat with just half an eye in the shot', and the 'glowing fluorescent goat'. Just because we want people to vote for our shots, shouldn't make us shut up when we can offer constructive criticism, because it seems even when we are quiet then we become the victims of ignorant voters. At least if we say something, we can benefit the community in the long run.

You don't have to be nasty about anyone else's work, and we should all (if we aspire to pro standards) have thicker skins and be willing to receive constructive criticism. I regularly look at the pics I've lost to as the votes come in - because I want to learn and improve! And people will know that I don't have a problem in loosing to a good shot because when I can praise a shot that's taught me something - then I do!

But I still think that voting should be a two tier system - with votes from award winners counting for more.
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Breeze78

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It's gonna happen. But it happens to everyone, so I don't think in the end it really matters. The only thing I can suggest is make sure your photo gets 30 votes at a minimum, so it doesn't get eliminated by people voting randomly to get credits. I've had a few pictures that were eliminated (paused) quickly after posting, but after buying votes a few times, rose with scores into the 600s.

Also, don't take it personally if you lose to a horrible image. Some votes are definitely random.

It all comes down to some people being bad seeds, and I don't think there is much the site can do about it.