voting for bad images

  • 196
  • Problem
  • Updated 9 months ago
  • Solved
i think folks are voting for lesser quality images to improve their odds of winning....since we can see those we duel against its kinda obvious, is my work perfect NO, but no way a blurry poorly composed shot should beat a good composition that is sharp and appealing.....i don't understand...is there a way for admin to see this too? seems a bit unfair to me....
Photo of denise johnson

denise johnson

  • 23 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like

Posted 8 years ago

  • 196
Photo of denise johnson

denise johnson

  • 23 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
where are folks getting feedback??? i am not getting squat
Photo of Making Memories Photography

Making Memories Photography

  • 46 Posts
  • 3 Reply Likes
Don't bother the only place I have gotten feedback is RedBubble.com and 1X and AmericanFineArts.com. This sight sucks.
Photo of Terry Gower

Terry Gower

  • 2016 Posts
  • 633 Reply Likes
You can give comments on the photo...maybe thats what people mean?
Photo of denise johnson

denise johnson

  • 23 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
i know you CAN give comments but i have never gotten any real constructive criticism....just wondering how others are....cause they mention it here....that thats why they like the site....i would love to know why most of my stuff doenst do as well as some i see.....tips would be greatly appreciated!
Photo of Terry Gower

Terry Gower

  • 2016 Posts
  • 633 Reply Likes
Theres lots of reasons and maybe not many have anything to do with the quality of your shots......I've just been looking through, theres duplicates all over the place, obvious photoshopped in the wrong catergory, some catergories where is not worth entering unless you are from the right place......
Photo of Sasha Ivanovic

Sasha Ivanovic

  • 69 Posts
  • 28 Reply Likes
Ok, my thoughts on reasons for voting for bad images are following:

1. Yes, there are times when players vote for bad images in order to decrease the chances of the obviously better image to advance to the top.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION: Pixoto should choose certain number of active players (according to their activity, quality of work, awards etc) and when they vote, their vote should be worth eg. 5 or 10 times more then normal vote. Those players SHOULD NOT KNOW they have that privilege because they might misuse it. In that way voting for bad images might be offset.

2. During the image duels, images are of fairly small size, and many imperfections (blurriness, out of focus, bad composition etc.) are not so noticeable especially when players decide for which image to vote in the matter of a second or two. You can only notice those imperfections when you click on the image you just lost and see the larger sized version of the image.

SOLUTION: Show larger size images during image duels.

3. Image duels pages are sometimes not running flawlessly (it can be slow or overloaded pixoto server or internet connection itself). What I mean is that very often I click on the winning image and I don't get the next set of images for 10 seconds or more, if i am impatient and I click again on the same wining image the second set of images will just appear for a moment and disappear and I will get the third set of images (which means that I just voted on a second set of images "blindly" and for course in many cases I just might given the vote for a bad image.

SOLUTION: If pixoto server is in question then better server is needed, if internet connection is the problem, well nothing can be done from their side.

4. As suggested by several others I am sure there are players that are just "clicking away" in order to collect points needed to upload or unpause their images. They are not interested in hurting anybodies chances but are to lazy to watch and think about the images they are voting for.

SOLUTION: No idea! :-)

Cheers,
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 2228 Posts
  • 359 Reply Likes
Thanks for the feedback Sasha. We could allocate more power to some voters but this wouldn't really help the problem of people being unhappy with the bad votes. They would still see those and if they didn't know they had less impact than others they would be upset. Also - I don't think the major critisim above is about the top images on the site. There seems to be some consensus that the site is doing a good job of finding the really exceptional images and putting them on the top. The criticism seems, in my opinion, to be more focused on the images that are not the best on the site - but are seen as being better than many of the images they are losing to. This is an unfortunate consequence of our pausing methodology which gives images only a limited chance to "make it to the big leagues". Bad votes tend to average our over 100 votes and not be much of a factor - but over 6 or 10 votes a few bad ones can set an image back.

You're absolutely right about the size of ImageDuel images. Focus, grain, etc often get's ignored. Unfortunately given the size of most browsers we can't increase the size of ImageDuel images safely. We also think a zoom function would only be used by a minority of voters. We might be able to use animation here to show both images full screen and then have users make a choice. We'll look into that.

We're trying to make ImageDuel as fast as we can. If you experience any poor performance in ImageDuel (like a 10 second delay) please report it so we can trying to figure out when it is happening.

As far as people "clicking away" - we have an easy way to catch that behavior (and we do) however given that the bad votes are still showing up (and we don't tell people their votes are discounted) people have the perception that those votes are counting. A release this week will fix that.

Thanks again for your feedback.
Photo of denise johnson

denise johnson

  • 23 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
how can a pic go backwards in points when it wins 3 out of 4 duals? i think that happened to me? oh well, i am not sure how much longer i am gonna keep trying ...every time i get a shot over 600 it undoubtedly goes backwards...makes me wonder....i am not saying my work is the best out there but i have been told i can take a pretty good portrait.....babies and girls without something on their head just dont stand much of a chance, lol.............my granddaughter was so depressed that she lost to a badly edited old man, said its gonna leave scars, i laughed till i cried....
Photo of Sasha Ivanovic

Sasha Ivanovic

  • 69 Posts
  • 28 Reply Likes
Denise, you have to look at the number of points of the images you beat or lose to, not only the simple lose/win ratio.

When your image comes to 600 it is more often matched against the images that have more points than yours (eg. 650 or more which probably means they are in TOP20 position) to establish if your image "deserves" higher points total, and that's when it becomes harder to win since the quality of your opponents.

Wins against the images that are ranked lower than yours doesn't do much for your overall score, but if you lose against on of those and you do not win against the higher ranking images that is when your score goes down.

Losing against inferior image is something we all experienced, but if your image has more then 100 duels, three or four loses against images like that will not affect your final score much.

Keep up with great work and don't be discouraged since having a score of close to 600 is great achievement itself.
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Janette Fraser: Absurd Thought for the day... If, while walking through a
crowd, everyone was munching, slurping and sucking on a different sweet than
you are... would the lemon bonbon form an alliance with the sherbet lemon?
And would the rhubarb and custard feel any essential kinship?

Stian Kjørsvik: But yes - I think similar tastes would probably recognize
each other, but not necessarity form alliances, unless for effective
cooperational purposes or something, hehe :)

Janette Fraser: lol. Yes - to co-operate they would have to be able to
recognise the similarities of their shared Lemon and Vanilla ingredients...
but on the other hand, the Lemon bonbon is a different shape, colour,
texture and density to the Sherbert lemon. Although they cannot co-operate
with something they cannot recognise, the danger of the Lemon Bonbon and
Sherbert lemon position is that their relationship maybe become
overly-characterised by their shared similarities to the detriment of their
ability to explore their differences cooperatively. If the Sherbert lemon
and the Lemon bonbon did form an alliance based on only their similarities,
it's going to be of very little use to them when they meet the awesome
strangeness of the Cadburies Cream Egg.

Janette Fraser: It may be an absurd thought, but you can apply the same
principles to the relationship of nation states in the United nations, and
also in any and all relationships a human being can have with another one.
:-)

93's.

How would we apply this to pixoto? :-)
Photo of denise johnson

denise johnson

  • 23 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
well if the bonbon was nasty, had 1/2 the sugar it should have and was lumpy and had coconut and should have had powdered chocolate on it hopefully even the lemon sherbert would be smart enough not to eat it!
Photo of denise johnson

denise johnson

  • 23 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
thank you sasha for the kind words and the explaination....
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 2228 Posts
  • 359 Reply Likes
Hey All - I just wanted to let you know that the current release of Pixoto ads in a few ImageDuel enhancements that prevent bad votes. We are building out two additional major enhancements which will launch next week.

In addition - for all duels from this point forward if the votes don't count, we won't show them. This should give you a better sense of what is really happening in the voting on your images.
Photo of Joey Stehno

Joey Stehno

  • 1 Post
  • 0 Reply Likes
Explain how this photo beat the one below it. I think pixoto is biased.

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

to make matters worse the bottom photo is now 1 and 5. it has been resubmitted about 4 times
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Just popped into say: the change to the system does seem to be working. I'm seeing a lot less bad voting decisions. Great stuff. Thanks for listening and doing your best to respond Pixoto. :-)
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 2228 Posts
  • 359 Reply Likes
Janette - I can't tell you how happy it makes me to hear you say that. We've still got a few more improvements coming but glad to know we are making a difference.
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Jason- yes, I review my duels with far more gratification. I can look at my picture and say: yes - this won against mine - and then appreciate the greater skill, dramatic content, or mood context preference impact of the winning shot.

You don't blame the sea for making waves. :-)
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Funny Games, Not Olympic Games!

At Pixoto, where else?

Mr. Kiefer says that Pixoto algorithm is perfect. The algorithm takes us our voting rights when we vote against some "majority pattern" (what a bloated logic, considering that we Authors present here our Creative Works, some of us, even present genuine photography (not highly processed shapshotography). The Art is not the Math!!!! Nor Stats!!!

Thanks God, we now have at least This One Algorithm in the entire world that Knows How To Select Real Art From Crap!!! :) :) :)

So, let's see the "World's Famous Algorithm" at work.

This is my image:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

It won it's first two duels, exactly the fifth and sixth one, against this very fine photographs:

a) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
b) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

and later...

c) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
(Absolutely fantastic image, faaaar better than mine!! I Don't Want That Win!!)

d) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
(finally ONE IMAGE that is evidently not as good as mine)

First 3 out of 4 images that lost to mine are more than good, and one of them - excellent!! And I am not sure if my image won rightfully here. I wouldn't mind loosing 3 of 4 Duels, at all!

These are images that have won over my image:

1. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
2. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
3. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
4. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
5. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
6. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Last DUEL OUTCOME is An Absolute Ace Of Art!!!!! ROFL!!!

Thanks for your precious time!! Now that you go and see my image, you should not get it in duels, as Mr. Kiefer wrote on the blog. If you get the image in your duels anyway, please just skip them (not to vote biased) and take a couple of minutes to "report" it here.

Let's close the "Allmighty Algorithm Tour" with one more example! Like you had not enough fun right now, please donate my just a one more minute of your precious time and compare following two images:

Loosing image (normally, mine!) :)
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Winning image (normally, not mine!!!) :)
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

There were many more "patriotic voted" duels against my image. Cooooool!

And now, Ladies and Gentlemen,

We can see the efects of Famous Algorithm that follows (allows) the twisted logic. Long Live The Algorithm!

The Art Is Dead! At Least At Pixoto!! :) :) :) :) :)

Your Fellow Tog,

Tigi Borg
Photo of Michelle

Michelle

  • 146 Posts
  • 27 Reply Likes
tigi,

what meaning does this phrase have? im lost

"Last DUEL OUTCOME is An Absolute Ace Of Art!!!!! ROFL!!!"
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Hi Michelle! :)

The "Last DUEL OUTCOME" means the outcome of duel between my and last listed image in my post.

And ROFL means "Rolling On Floor Laughing"!

Matter of fact, I even can't be disappointed by such voting outcome. Not any more. I can only laugh at it. And not only at it, but also at the expressions from Pixoto reps here, that state the algorithm being excellent and bringing "the best images to the top".

I would like, indeed, to see that algorithm work correctly. I don't mind if it passes all, really ALL votes from all voters, no matter how the outcome of dueling will be.

But, while some really good people and togs have lost their votes here, e.g. their votes are discounted and are worth less (or nothing), compared to other vote(r)s, Pixoto fails day by day on all human merit scales.

Yes, it may have more "players", more "great images" and votes submitted every day, but it is not due to Quality Of Service, the site is providing to the gathered community, but merely to nice look on the front page, and the promotional ad stating "Win up to 2000$ in weekly contests".

We are here to present and compare our creative works: photographs and digital images. The Site claims that it "brings the best images forward, to the top". I presented in my post only One of Many Thousands of examples that it simply does not come close to reality, however good idea of Pixoto was and regardless of all the efforts the Crew puts in maintaining it.

I Want My Images that are of lesser quality than opposing in duels - to lose. The same logic I have for my images that are better than opposing... to win these duels.

Jadranka and Her Daughter were deprived the right to vote, although they still earn awards here, not now not ever by friendly support. They were "flagged" by this bloated "Worlds Famous Algorithm". They can't get their votes countable, because they always voted for better images, based on objective artistic and photographic criteria.

Many other players' votes don't count. "Just to make voting more fair"!

And, we see how these remaining "fair voters" vote, and what comes out of duels on their computers.

Have a nice weekend and join us in healthy laughing over all these funny games here! Olympics are still some 2 months away! :) :) :) :) :)
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Real show at Pixoto (under the radar of the Famous Algorithm):

Loosing image:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Winning image:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Enjoy The Show! We'll be back with more testimonials from "the battlefield" as some people think of comparing creative works! :)

Long live the Fair Voting and The Algorithm Allmighty! :)
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
It' s Me again! Can't even laugh any more. Time to get serious!!

Looser:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Winner:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

I kindly ask you players to give here your analysis of these two images. Which is really better and why!

I WILL Appreciate all the constructive comments, based on proven artistic merits!

Thank You All! :)
Photo of Michelle

Michelle

  • 146 Posts
  • 27 Reply Likes
im not so daft as to not know what rofl means, im more confused regarding your "ace of art" comment in the middle. It seems to me that the last image you are concerned with has the weekly challenge theme to the letter, its got a flag and its a "traveling flag" not a boring, pristine flag on a pole.... many others too are the same in your list, american flag on british coast (it obviously travelled to get there) and flutterby is a flag that has seen many moons by the looks of it. Dipali S's image you lost too shows no patriotism which leads me to your next concern

as for "patriotic voted", I have noticed that many people have submitted more than one flag to this weeks challenge, suggesting entrants arent that bothered which flag they enter, its up to voters to decide which is the best image, if you are really bothered about these "patriotic votes" why dont you submit a different countries flag and see how far it climbs? just a thought.

one more point, no one in the world can build and use an algorithm which factors in human free will, we will always get a certain set of people who vote for what they like rather than what is best, some people even do it subconsciously and dont think they are doing wrong, its just something we have to put up with.

have a good weekend
Photo of Timothy Hulme

Timothy Hulme

  • 1 Post
  • 0 Reply Likes
<>

Michelle, why is that so wrong. Everyone here seems to be missing the point that Art is subjective. Technically correct is fine but I've seen lots of photos here that are just that, but in my opinion - their crap! yet week after week their at the top. It's a matter of personal opinion, and you are correct that an algorithm can not factor that in the the mix. 99% of people will judge a photo emotionally first before they look to the technical aspect. Personally regarding Tigi's post above - I don't care for either photo and had they come up for me in an image duel against each other I would have skipped voting and moved to the next set of photos. Perhaps one of the photo nerds here could explain what is technically correct about the loser and why it should have won over the other photo, because I don't see it.

Based on an interview I heard on TWIP the founders of this site intended it to a community. A place to share and have a bit of fun at the same time. Not to be a site for the technically obsessed.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Michelle, thank for your answer. I see that you don't care about my national flag and it is your right to do so.

However, I live in the place where that one flag very proudly waves in the sun and wind every day and we don't have here any American, British or other honored flags to take pictures.

I assume that more people would also take pictures of Croatian flags, "over there" in US or GB, if they could find them. But it is not that easy, too.

So, while we respect any nationality and it's symbols, we help each other(s) to live in a beautiful and peaceful world! :)

And, the little school of geography. City of Novalja on Pag island is in the middle of Croatian side of Adriatic sea, Northern part of Mediterranean sea.

Check this map:

https://maps.google.hr/maps?hl=hr&q=g...

You see, it is not just a "two hours ride" to the US, to take pictures of Stars Stripped Banner, an Honored American Flag. It takes much longer. Furthermore, due to Very Justified security reasons, it is not allowed to approach US Embassy in Zagreb (Croatian capital), waving the camera in hands. That would not be allowed and I respect it.

Therefore, however do I like your post, I must disagree on it's part of "going out taking pictures of other national flags". It is not the same as going to mall to shop groceries! :)

Once more, thank you for your dear post! Enjoy the weekend! :)
Photo of Michelle

Michelle

  • 146 Posts
  • 27 Reply Likes
Tigi,
sorry, you seem to have mis-understood my comments.
"boring flag on a pole" is NOT my view, I was trying to put across the apparent views of some voters here, like I said, some people vote for what they like (what appears visually pleasing to them) and not that which is artistically better.

imho ALL national flags are a symbol of honour and pride for the respective countrymen involved, therefore I have respect for them too, I would like to think visitors to our country feel the same way, but its not always true.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Let's go little further in my reporting.

Brilliant streak of less then brilliant...

... WINNING image:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

And three LOOSING photographs (these are REAL photographs!!!):

1) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
(not "some boring flag on the pole"... aaahhhhh what an attitude...)

2) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
3) http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Dear Friends, I know that some people here desperately need votes for their images to prove themselves that they are "good", "superb" or even "excellent top rated photographers"!

However, It Is Much Cheaper To Visit Some Visual Artist To Design And Print Some False Award Achievement...

... than to sit at Pixoto and vote (down) thousands of photographs and artworks. :)

Jason, algorithm stuff does not work as it was thought to be working. So, please, just return the state to normal. Switch of All These Personal Flags In Your Database and simply let people play. Excluding votes won't help! Here's the proof!

Enjoy Weekend! :)
Photo of Michelle Meenawong

Michelle Meenawong

  • 1297 Posts
  • 138 Reply Likes
wow Tigi, you made a lot of work. It's great but now I start to think that all the time lost looking at all the cheating, bad votind, duplicate images is actually for nothing. I still hope that the real players are more than the cheaters but the fact is now that nobody can change it. We need the staff on our side otherwise the cheaters won't care and continue. If somebody has a good idea how to stop it, please post it here on the forum. It's too frustating now