voting for bad images

  • 196
  • Problem
  • Updated 7 months ago
  • Solved
i think folks are voting for lesser quality images to improve their odds of winning....since we can see those we duel against its kinda obvious, is my work perfect NO, but no way a blurry poorly composed shot should beat a good composition that is sharp and appealing.....i don't understand...is there a way for admin to see this too? seems a bit unfair to me....
Photo of denise johnson

denise johnson

  • 23 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like

Posted 8 years ago

  • 196
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
There's a great little site called photoshop disasters, that's not only a huge laugh, but that highlights where people go wrong with image editing. :-)

http://www.psdisasters.com/

It even features a cover image that has somehow got past the editor of Cosmopolitan! How did that happen?! lol. Well - it just goes to show that it's not only on Pixoto that people drop the ball. Most of the errors we see on the site here aren't anywhere near that bad, but voting could be improved if Pixoto wrote up a voting guide for photoshop neophytes: for instance:

When I first saw Dave Boyds very cute 'Maine Coon Kitten' this week, I said 'ahhh' (probably the first reaction of everyone). http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

He's managed to get a score of 672 for the image, BUT - if you take the time to actually look at the image then you realise you can see he's put a sharpening effect on the eyes because the kitten was very slightly out of focus. He's also got a bland 'smudge' on the fur by the face that looks odd, and he's tried to put the whiskers back he rubbed out out earlier but unfortunately they don't match. Another error is that his masking has left a grey area around the rear of the cat, when the background is orange/red. This could have been corrected with the proper manipulation of the area.

Now - I love most of Dave's work and I think he's a smashing Tog, better than me in most respects. It's not my intention to 'bash him', but the obvious errors on this image along with the high score and #4 current position this week in 'Cats' caught my attention. I can't in all honesty think this image out of his portfolio deserves the points it's received.

People just aren't looking properly! A Pixoto 'Voting Guide' for Photoshop Neophytes would be a valuable resource to the community and might go a long way to improve matters arising from bad voting decisions on the site.

Another thing that might also act as a preventative to bad voting decisions, would be if there was a timer placed on Imagedual so that players had to spend a minimum amount of time properly considering the merits of the images they're being asked to vote upon.
Photo of Nathan Cool

Nathan Cool

  • 49 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
Here's one for the books. Tell me (honestly, I can take it), how my image here:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

...failed against these:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
and
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
and
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

None of those are even in focus, they have noise, and some were washed out with a high flash.

Am I missing something?

-Nathan
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Ok - in the first of your lost duels, the competition had a shot that scored high on dramatic content. Sometimes you see a shot that has enough dramatic content to overcome it's defects. Also... you were shooting at 1600 ISO while he was shooting at 800 - i.e. cleaner picture quality. You might have got voted down for the slight grain, or for the grey residue of a mask you left around the outside of the cat as you tried to make it look as if you'd bracketed the depth of focus.

Again - the second one beat yours in the category of dramatic content. You're is a shot of a nice household pet. Tracie Christine's image was a shot of 'Bastet' - Cat Goddess. Although there is far too much flash in this picture it does result in a picture with more impact. Your lighting and colouration of the background are uninspiring and dull. It does not contribute anything to the shot. And composition wise, Tracie's shot was better because a profile shot - capturing the eyes in that position to emphasise the shape of the pupil, is more unusual and therefore more interesting to examine.

And the third one? Interaction between two subjects in a picture makes the mirror neurons in the brain fire off analysing for social activity, so the picture receives more attention from the viewer. The more a picture can hold and captivate your attention, the more you are likely to like it. As for the picture itself... I have loads of them in my 'throw away' bins. In this instance the dramatic content does not justify the obvious errors of the shot in either the original or the post processed work. You would never settle for a shot like this if you were looking to buy a picture for any type of publication. There are too many great photographs taken by fantastic Togs to bother with something of inferior quality. Whereas, I might use your shot for an advert for Pet insurance or something. It shouts out the message that there is safety in the ordinary. The white walls. The plumbing. The brown door. And the theme: The Office Cat?

So - although I think 2 of the decisions were correct at the end of the day, I also think your Cat is saleable if you target your market right. Hurrah eh!?
Photo of Nathan Cool

Nathan Cool

  • 49 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
Thanks Janette, I appreciate the feedback. I deleted my pic...I look at it differently now. Another contributor left me a FB comment regarding this post and mentioned mine was underexposed. I wish I could get this kind of feedback on every pic I submit, instead of just the image duel results...this is far more helpful.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it.

-Nathan
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
No problem. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to do an honest assessment, as I also learn by the process of - not only doing the assessment, but also from framing my understanding in words. It helps to clarify my decision making process for me.

Any time you see one of mine and feel like commenting, that would also be much appreciated Nathan. :-)

Cheers.
Photo of Nathan Cool

Nathan Cool

  • 49 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
btw, I resubmitted that photo after doing some Lightroom adjustments to bring out the foreground and clean out some of the noise. Last I looked, it was now up over 475, and from what I watched earlier today it beat out the pics it previously lost against:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Still not the best I've done though, but your critique definitely helped (be better if I could just retake that one).

Also, what's the link to your Pixoto page...I can't seem to see if from this discussion board.

-Nathan
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Yeah - much better!

http://www.pixoto.com/alrah

Not much there at the moment. I've been doing tests when I've time. I load up 5 photographs of a hill in various states of correction and saturation, then collect and collate the voting. The results look quite interesting but I won't comment until I'd done a few more yet.

Alrah.
Photo of Re Rod

Re Rod

  • 16 Posts
  • 2 Reply Likes
After several weeks, this topic is still quite annoying. It is obvious that some voters intentionally vote for bad images, esp. with newly uploaded images.
I think you can easily confirm that by checking your logs / statistics or simply by spot tests. So what are you planning to do about this?!
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 2228 Posts
  • 359 Reply Likes
Well - we've done a lot.

We have both real-time and historical analysis that finds people who are voting for bad images, or voting randomly, and discounts their votes.

We will continue to enhance these procedures on an ongoing basis.

Unfortunately you can't see when we've done this (showing you this information would make it easier for people to get around it) so you will still see the bad votes in the imageduel history (even if they don't count).
Photo of Nathan Cool

Nathan Cool

  • 49 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
Jason, thanks for all the hard work on improving this. One suggestion though: Would it be possible to only show the image duel history for the "valid" votes? I really like to see what I lost and won against...it really helps me to see what I did right and what I can improve on. Having invalid history shots doesn't tell me how my shots truly compared.

Thanks again Jason,

-Nathan
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 2228 Posts
  • 359 Reply Likes
Yes! We're working on it.
Photo of Eli Allan

Eli Allan

  • 4 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I'm currently quite confused about the leading photo in the Travel category. To acknowledge some bias, I should mention that I do have an image competing somewhat closely with it, but I think I'm being objective. The image was posted by an exceptional photographer and I think the rest of his gallery is stunning, but this picture is barely more than a snapshot and surely doesn't compare to the ten following it. If I'm wrong let me know.
Photo of Nathan Cool

Nathan Cool

  • 49 Posts
  • 18 Reply Likes
I think it's a nice shot, definitely worth an upvote. It may not be the most stunning, but I think it would have a very good chance of betting out other shots. I am though a little surprised it's at #1, as it beat out what looks like a lot of HDR shots. It really is though subjective, since this isn't really a slam-dunk bad...just so-so good, IMHO.
Photo of Wayne Ross

Wayne Ross

  • 15 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes
Submit while Zagreb sleeps......
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Zagreb Clan was annoying me since I joined Pixoto in Dec 2011 and found some hardly to be called photographers (that I personally know) showing off with their "prestigeous awards".

But 30 or so Croatians, most of them coming to Pixoto very early from their local site ( www.pticica.com ), seem to have been just a "piece of cake". I know that people from that site are not one coherent group.

The flood of What Seems To Be Indonesian "Patriotic" Voting is in motion.

I totally distaste any "Patriotic or Team Voting" as it does not bring better images forward, but does everything to stop them progressing, therefore killing most of equal or better photographic work.

Be it Croatian, Indonesians, Americans, or little green guys from planet Mars, it is all the same... worth contempt.

It seems now that you really can "submit images while Zagreb sleeps", like I do sometimes, because I'm not the part of that clan...

But.. are the Indonesians (sorry guys and girls, but you seem to be too organized to keep your voting invisible) sleeping? Is there any such part of the day when they sleep?

PIXOTO should do whatever it can to prevent "Patriotic - or any Team Voting".

And, Yesssss, PIXOTO would do the best if cancelling prize money. As somebody here wrote, many people that seek money here would just leave!!
Photo of Wayne Ross

Wayne Ross

  • 15 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes
Glad you are not part of the "Gang from 'Greb"...
I have not been active on Pixoto since I lost to some naked children peeing in a river.
I should have reported that shot ( not because I lost ) but because of the nature of the shot. Too many sick people in this world who would really enjoy seeing child pornography laced into a photo contest. I have nothing against artistic adult nudity but REALLY? KIDS???
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
I saw such naked kids and reported the image. While it may be "just normal" in "their" part of the world to walk naked, it really doesn't have anything to do on photography, on the net...

And, today I saw and reported very disgusting image of dead woman being dueled in the Journalism. Image seem to originate from East Asia, as were a couple of very brutal images last week, displaying some kind of military torture...

They even left into duels some "photoshop art" (Good help them), with extreme brutality... I reported that too...

It looks that there's more sick people here...

"Gang from Zagreb" just mirrored the situation from our local popular photo site ( www.pticica.com ) to Pixoto. They do the same "at home", irritating most of decent photographers, but on local site, most of the still active people (from some 19.000+) seem to be quiet and do nothing to step in their way. I did, and was brutally insulted by "The Gang". I ignore such people and believe in quality of work, of real art.

So, if Pixoto doesn't do something systematic against any "gang voting" many of us will turn away and return to other sites. I have my personal one that needs a lot of "houskeeping" anyway.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
And... the "Greb gang" as you call it, has done anything they could to kill my images, as well as images of some other independent photographers from our community.

The only difference now is that "Greb gang's" nasty actions are just like a drop in the sea, comparing to these "patriotic Indonesians", who emerge in hundreds on Pixoto.

One way or another, none of my images have reached ImageScore of 600 and I don't expect any of them to get in 600+ class until Pixoto does some very huge voting policy overhaul! :)
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Every day, here on Pixoto we can witness more and more ORGANIZED TEAM VOTING.

If "Croatian Zagreb Team" was annoying, what to say about flood of Indonesian images in top positions, be they good or bad?!!

This image...

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

... surged to a 3rd overall position in just a couple of hours, and I am VERY SURE that it's "success" is a result of INDONESIAN TEAM VOTING!!

Please, do what you can to PREVENT "PATRIOTIC VOTING", e.g. please implement some kind of filter in the duels, preventing people from the same country voting for the images of their respective nationality authors'!!

While it might be a hard task, it will certainly help limit massive cheating!!
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 2228 Posts
  • 359 Reply Likes
We've caught a lot of this (including the "Greb gang" and have a more permanent solution coming into place soon that will address many of the issues you are seeing. Stay tuned.
Photo of Michelle Meenawong

Michelle Meenawong

  • 1297 Posts
  • 138 Reply Likes
I hope some day, we will get back the old duels. I mean, like it was a few months ago. Fair, no cheating. The way it works now is too frustating and I know I'm not alone
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Dear Michelle, if there were fair duels at the time you describe, then there would be no chance for some of my country fellows (guys as well as ladies) to parade here with so high positions, with millions of Pixoto points and to act quite better photographers then they are.

No way, some of them would get even close to place in Top 100, not to speak of Top 10 or even much higher. Some members of their clan were obviously banned or excluded, and some remain here.

But, let me repeat, "Greb Gang" as they call it here is piece of cake when compared to Indonesians. Please look at February Leaderbord in Transportation > Boats. It seems that THEY OWN this subcategory, with about 150 their images in Top 200!! This points not to special quality, although there are some very good images, but merely to some kind of agreement to displace everyone else out out of awarding positions!

The simplest solutions would be to:

1. exclude duels in the same category where player has posted her/his images and
2. filter out duels for players from same country and
3. REMOVE identification of images with players in leaderboards, at least for the current month of competition, when an image is submitted!

I believe, Pixoto Crew will do this and more, so we will be great step towards more fair competition.
Photo of Anshul Sukhwal

Anshul Sukhwal

  • 22 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
I believe the 1st solution is the best one!!! Wow..!!!
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
I'm pretty sure that by now - Pixoto are as pissed off as we all are. I mean - these guys didn't get into the biz for this crapola and I bet they remind each other of that. The Pixoto peeps are Photo Eds (the same peeps who used to run Photoshelter... am I right?). And so this is a case of 'not letting a few bad apples spoil the whole damn bunch!'

So we all have to get smart.

I support Pixoto - because everything changes and problems can be overcome... and I think a few bully boys can be scared off with the water Canons... oh Horus! That went all ... archetypal there... lol. :D

The worst thing we can do is let our spirits drop. I'm seeing Pixoto changing and combating the menace with the help of people on these boards that are reporting it... so I think instead of bitching right now, I want to commend you guys for co-operating and bringing us all together over this issue.

Thanks. :-)
Photo of Natasha Shakhnes

Natasha Shakhnes

  • 32 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
I also hope it will be arranged, because this site is much better than many similar ones, like photorush. Still, I must be very proud that one of my picture still got a score above 600, because I don't even have Photoshop.
Photo of Terry Gower

Terry Gower

  • 2016 Posts
  • 633 Reply Likes
It does seem that on certain categories some form of gang voting is happening...its obvious,and a bit sad, that the top photos are all from the same region..... It feels like theres no point in entering because you won't get anywhere because you don't live there.
Photo of Michelle Meenawong

Michelle Meenawong

  • 1297 Posts
  • 138 Reply Likes
I think Tigi's idea about filtering out duels for players from the same country is good but what will happen with the american ones? I guess (not sure) that the most players are from the States, so if all americans don't play the duels for other american, will there be enough players??? I little confusing. I don't know how this all works and if they do this with only two or three countries, is this not discrimination? Why can't people just be fair? I thought everybody just want to see if people like and appreciate their work. So folks, just be fair please
Photo of Michelle Meenawong

Michelle Meenawong

  • 1297 Posts
  • 138 Reply Likes
... and don't spoil Pixoto which is a good photo site
Photo of Anshul Sukhwal

Anshul Sukhwal

  • 22 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Jason,

I am really impressed by the solution suggested by "Tigi Borg" 3 days back of "excluding the players" from VOTING the images from the same "category" in which they have uploaded the images.

Although it will be troublesome if they upload images in a larger chunk of categories/subcategories. This may also help them boost their friend's images in other categories/subcategories and vice versa.

One solution could be that a person is allowed to vote in his categories "only" if the images are recently uploaded.

What do you say???
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Hi Anshul!

If each of us really participates the contest as a single player and not as a part of some large (very important term) team, then my idea may be worth.

However, taking a look at "Transportation / Boats" or "Photojournalism" or a few other categories, gives a tremendous impression that many folks here do not participate as single players, but rather as big big and well organized teams.

Even having one or two friends can't be enough to boost each others images in same or different categories. What number of votes can it bring? 1, 2, 5? But having "at hand" approximately 50, 100 or more "patriots" or "team players" can skyrocket someone (or each others) images quickly to 600 or even 700+ ImageScore.

The reason not to be able to vote in the category where you post your images is simple: BIAS. Nobody posts his or her images to be dumped in a trash. Therefore, any voting in the same category may be biased or calculated (as you suggested mentioning friends voting for each other).

So, the lesser potential for biased voting, the less problems shall there be.

BTW, you have seen the Indonesian domination in "Boats" or in "Journalism"! Haven't you! Then please check, to understand my idea! :)
Photo of Natasha Shakhnes

Natasha Shakhnes

  • 32 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
By the way, Tigi, I do try not to vote for these images. It doesn't mean voting 'against' them. If I don't like the picture that comes aside it in the duel, I simply skip the duel (sometimes I have to skip like 4 or 5 duels). And it's not simply the matter of fairness, I just want to see more vatiety on the top page.
Photo of Breeze78

Breeze78

  • 38 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
That's a great thing to do. I respect you a lot for doing that. That seems really fair to everyone.
Photo of Anshul Sukhwal

Anshul Sukhwal

  • 22 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
I understood your point completely, Tigi and what I said earlier also pointed out the same thing. What I meant to say was that if a person uploads images in say all the categories and then if he is NOT allowed to vote for the categories he has uploaded images then it will be a problem. He won't be able to earn credits to upload/support his images. That's the reason why I told it will be better if he is allowed "only" to select the "latest" images in his duels so that he almost has NO clue which image will go to the top.
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Perhaps we're going about this the wrong way...

If people are grouping into tribes to try and affect voting, then why not have a separate voting game where they can just get on with it and leave the pixoto site for "Individual works & Individual Voters" - alone. Make it fun for them and more appealing than bothering us Individually Minded Togs! Call it... tribal-tog or something. lol.
Photo of Breeze78

Breeze78

  • 38 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
I was the one that originally reported the really bad Croatian images that were scoring really highly with crazy win/loss rates and got the ball rolling on investigating what was going on with those pictures...

I'm not so sure if there is Indonesian cheating going on. There photos seem legitimately good. Can someone send an example of a really bad image that seems to have scored 700+?

I checked out the photojournalism photos like Tigi suggested and they are all really really good photos. A few of the photos that are under "boats" look low resolution and oversharpened, but I bet in the voting screen when they are smaller they look fine. An example would be:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
but even that is an interesting photo with how clear and blue the water is.

I really think it's just a bunch of good photographers shooting really interesting or photogenic topics, especially when the subject matter is so foreign and therefor interesting to voters in the US.
Photo of Natasha Shakhnes

Natasha Shakhnes

  • 32 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
Tigi Borg is right. The pictures of boats and children in water appear anywhere, from journalism to fine art (what on earth have these kids do with fine art?). And there is no dirrefence between them.

It's not just the question of cheating and breaking the rules of the site. It is just frustrating that really special images (that I see in the duels) never get to the top of the leader's board.
Photo of Breeze78

Breeze78

  • 38 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
You can't be sure the pictures you see and like in duels didn't do well or weren't on the leader board. Old images that were on the leaderboard are still voted on.

Whether things are in the right category or not is a whole different subject that should be brought up under a new topic. Maybe you should start a new topic.
Photo of Michelle Meenawong

Michelle Meenawong

  • 1297 Posts
  • 138 Reply Likes
I don't understand why they allow this. I thought we have to delerte an image before posting it in another category
Photo of Breeze78

Breeze78

  • 38 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
We do. If you see the same picture in two different categories, report it! Check their profile to be sure though. It'll show up twice on their profile.
Photo of Miroslava Jurcik

Miroslava Jurcik

  • 12 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I had a look at the pic and thats photoshop..... the water is so clear, you can see a shadow, but you cannot see the rest of the boat under the water....... that doesnt make sence, as far as i know boats sits about half way in water......its not just a flat pice sitting right on top....... can anybody else see that ?
Photo of Janette Fraser

Janette Fraser

  • 191 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Personally... I'm not sure how much to believe about this nationalistic voting phenomenon we're hearing about.

I'm living in the North of England, which is a place rather beset by a lack of sunny days and crisp horizons. I see fellow togs in Scotland having the same problem as I do - which is this - for 'our land' to compete with some of the places that has 'the light', it means we have to over-saturate and over-vibrancy our images until they look like they could have been found oversea's in order to conform to the expectations of the voting majority (that live in 'the light').

Don't get me wrong here - I can only observe this phenomena as an outsider because I lived in Andulucia for 2 years (plenty of 'light'). When I came back to the UK I noticed that the place looked very dark to my sun naturalised eyes, and for a few months my vision struggled to find the refinement that it was used to - before I could really 'see' the subtle colour and beauty of my native landscape once again...

In Landscape - we could really do with sub-categories of Northern Equinox and Southern Equinox regions, or else extreme Northern or Southern latitudes are always going to loose out just because of the light expectation/conditioning of the voter.
Photo of Michelle Meenawong

Michelle Meenawong

  • 1297 Posts
  • 138 Reply Likes
Journalism should be at least a category displaying photos about events, happenings, and some kind of "not every day life".
Tigi, I totally agree. That's also the reason why I asked long time ago for a food category. Food fotography is very nice but I don't understand why it must be in the journalism category.
Janette, nature is a gift and beautiful everywhere. I'm living on an island in Thailand with a lot of light and stunning sunsets everyday but I love to see frog, snow and ice pictures which impress me a lot.
Photo of Breeze78

Breeze78

  • 38 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
Food photography isn't under journalism, it's under commercial photography. Why journalism and commercial photography are lumped together, I don't know. They are about as opposite as you can get!

I completely disagree about what photojournalism is. I have to stand by that it's story telling. http://edkashi.com/blog/what-is-photo... It's not my place to determine what stories need to be told. There are plenty of images that have won international awards from press photographers associations that weren't of a specific event, but just a story that needed to be told. http://bop.nppa.org/

Sports photography is technically photojournalism. I'm glad it has it's own category though.

Food should be lumped together with transportation and product photography under it's own group, probably with fashion as well, since it's all product photography.

A agree with what you said about nature! What unusual to you is what you might be attracted to, which is why I think pictures from Asia do so well with US voters.
Photo of Natasha Shakhnes

Natasha Shakhnes

  • 32 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
David, I agree with your definition of journalism. But then the same picture (with a 3 mm variation) is put in the categories of boats, landscape, portrait, travel and fine art. And this is not normal.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Thank you, Natasha for pointing out this important element of the conversation about Journalism.

If we accept any photo of any person doing his or her job, or just playing in the backyard or so many images (like in top Journalism positions), we simply do not let real journalism photos to contest in their native group.

And, I am very very tired of seeing what I see in that category. Many images have absolutely no journalistic value, even the less photographic. They don't deserve to be put in such specific category and their lookalikes appear in so many other categories.

I agree with you, David, that Sport photography is also a good place (for me) to present some portion of my work. But, why to heaven should really journalist images be chased out it's native category and leave the place to so many not even story tellyng images of simply - poor people?

Is'n a Roman Chatolic Church Pope visit a great deal stronger story than a photo of kids playing in the river or an old man hanging out his bird cages etc...???

Unless we stick to categories and to, as far as it can go, dueling within the same - properly feed category, your images will duel the other not compatible, my will compete in a category with so many incompatible images. We will be loosing duels, just because there are "many more of them than us" and not because our images can't match the quality.

And, I rarely do image editing, but tend to avoid it as much as possible and let people see has my camera really captured.

Even that could not be told about many leading 100 - 200 images in jorunalism! Shall there be no "wide patriotic front", then 9 out of 10 such "journalistic" works would ever top 300 point score.
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 2228 Posts
  • 359 Reply Likes
Two follow-ups to this thread:
1) We have created a plan to change the category structure and are looking for feedback. Please see: http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...

2) We have analyzed the reported phenomenon of country biased voting and have concluded that it is not an issue on Pixoto. More specifically the Indonesians vote for images from their country in EXACTLY the same way that the average of everyone else does. So if we pulled out all of the votes from Indonesia (or Malaysia or the Philippines) the leaderboard would look almost exactly the same as it does now. We DO have a lot of Indonesian photographers (over 750 individual Indonesian photographers have won awards) and they do tend to upload images to categories like "boats" and "photojournalism" so they seem dominant there BUT this is reflective on the quality of their work and not a patriotic bias.
Photo of Breeze78

Breeze78

  • 38 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
Thanks for looking! That's kind of what I figured. They seem to have great photographers over there. The new categories look great.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Jason,

you wrote that there are 750 Indonesian photographers who won the prizes on Pixoto. Well, if they flood a couple of categories, Boats and Journalism, and great deal of their work really does have nothing in common with Journalism, how will remaining 50 or so Croatians, or 10 Slovenians, or 20 Germans, Romanians, Austrians, Italians etc, ever get the chance to compete??

Yeah, you can't exclude the 750 people "by default". I understand it. You play safe, and that's ok. But your leaderboards show the state "as is" and everyone may, looking at them, see a bit the different image.

My point: Too many images from Indonesian photographers, many of them very similar one to each other, simply reach the orbit of "600 to 700" points in record breaking short times. It takes only 20 to 30 "fellow patriots" be active at a given time of submitting the image, to boost it above critical 500+ points. And when such images compete mostly again other images posted from the same country, you may be very very, let's say ABSOLUTELY SURE that some of them will get to the top. Math says so, stats say so, life says so. My personal opinion is irrelevant.

Therefore, being so largely outnumbered in a given category, these other images just end up stuck at the "junk", and never get their fair chance.

Since many folks here suggested ceasing of Cash Prizes, do it! Go for it and see how some numbers will get smaller and smaller and how many other photographers from other countries will emerge to Pixoto!

Enjoy the weekend! :)
Photo of Breeze78

Breeze78

  • 38 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
Tigi,

I really like the Indonesian photography in general and vote for a lot of those photos, and I don't live in Indonesia. They are just good photographers. I don't think Jason is lying. Like I also said above, I really believe your photos aren't doing well because they are under exposed, over contrasty, and have blocked up shadow areas, not because of a national conspiracy to take over Pixoto.

Also, he's fixing the categories, but even so, you posted this image under "photojournalism", along with sports pictures and photos of musicians. Why in the world would you be complaining about people mis-posting photos in the journalism category?

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
David,

thanks for your time and observations. Probably the people who accredit or hire me, know why they do so and don't call other Togs to do the job. Perhaps, it is based on quality and not the price. But, there's always a place to improve and I am fully aware of that. So, I'll take your remarks into consideration.

However, I do almost all of my work in ambient light. Sometimes I can't flash due to the nature of event, but many more times I simply go for the genuine atmosphere and not for an image that everyone else would take.

I don't understand your first doubt about placing this image:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

... in Journalism. If this is not The Core journalist photo, then what is. Here are my fellow journalist Togs doing their (and our) job at tennis ITF Davis Cup match. It is simply the story about us - storytellers! :)

I have placed intentionally the other image:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

... in Journalism. While the message on the car's rear window speaks about itself, the image is an "walk by capture", and no part of journalist assignment. However, I just wanted to point out that there are so many images in Journalism, really not having any connection with the category, because they tell no evident story about the life, happenings, events.

Have a nice day! :)
Photo of Natasha Shakhnes

Natasha Shakhnes

  • 32 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
Well, I don't think that my images are not doing well because of the team voting, I admit that some Indonesian pictures are good. But I don't vote for children playing in water when they appear in 'Fine art' (because it is not), or for a boat with a small figure of a man when it appears in the 'Portrait' category, because it is not a portrait. And this misuse of categories is annoying.

But look, Tigi, it doesn't have to be team voting. It is known that most viewers love pictures of tropical landscapes, especially if they are well-shot (and they are, you can't deny it). You can go to any resource like Pixoto and look at the page of leading images. It will be nearly the same everywhere. Sunsets (very glossy and mostly tropical), flowers, macro shots of insects etc. I am not a fan of this photography, and many pictures I come across in the duels seem to me much more special than what I see on the top page, but there is nothing you can do with a thing called a common taste, only try and get better in what you love to do.

I still hope that a problem with categories will be solved.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Natasha,

thank you for your comment. Before I even joined Pixoto, there were some 30 or so Croatians present here, and some group of them seem to be voting "very patriotically", e.g. boosting their photographs and skyrocketing sometimes very poor images to the awarding posts. I know that they were here, who they were and how the story ended.

By that time, there were only about 90.000 images on Pixoto, and about some 5 Million votes. Now, there are more than 400.000 Images and more than 15 Million votes.

I see, day by day - specifically Indonesian photographers contribute many good images to many categories. There are some categories that are more equally populated with images from all over the world, and a few others (Boats, Journalism) where Indonesian photographs appear in so large numbers, so that they seem to outnumber all other participating images in the respective category.

Be they good, bad, excellent or pure trash, it is not important. Be they heavily processed or closer to natural camera captures, does play no role. Do they carry any story or not, nobody cares.

And all they have one thing in common: they reach top or awarding positions with such ease that I haven't seen for any other's images in any category.

If there was just pure voting on the image quality or story telling, then most of these images would end a good deal lower on the ImageScore scale. I personally award my vote to many images from Indonesian Togs, when I find that images better than their counterpart in duels and when I feel that these images were not intentionally processed to gain a short positive shock on viewer / voter, hiding technical or other weaknesses behind bright shiny colors.

I do so for EVERY image appearing in duels, not based on knowing or not knowing it's background. However, I find at certain times that mine and other photographer's images intentionally lose in duels against very poor images, and you guess by now, that many of those bad images origin from... you know...

I am "The Lone Rider", a kind of "Don Quijote", not having problem to face the majority of voices and to stand in front to point to a problem.

I don't speak only for my own benefit but for common good. If the photographers on the site that claims to be gathering "world's best" do not care too much about the reality and merits, then Pixoto team will be having more and more problems, with shuffling the categories or not.

Wishing you a nice day and good light! :)
Photo of Natasha Shakhnes

Natasha Shakhnes

  • 32 Posts
  • 7 Reply Likes
Honestly, I mind clearly photoshopped images much more than a big amount of boats coming from a particular country. Because the heavily processed photos do tend to outnumber interesting pictures.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Here we go again, same old story - Voting for BAD IMAGES.

My latest example: Running:

Image:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

lost 4 times in a row (and who knows how many times before) to following image...

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Since I do PRO sport photography, and am not any kind of newbie to the trade (46 years constantly photographing), let me explain why I consider this a los to a BAD PHOTOGRAPHY and give some clue to interested people about technical merits of photo quality.

1. Framing. There are simple and pure rules of framing people. Where to frame and where not to frame. The "4 times winner" falls on the first look. It IS a very badly framed or cropped image. You simply don't cut the main subject's head and the legs the way it is done here... and don't cut half of a close standing person...

2. Camera motion - blur... seen on the background and peoiple. VERY POOR JOB

3. Aperture and shutter speed: You don't need f/8, because your main subject would look fine even at f/4 and the rest would be then naturally blurred.

Shooting sport scenes with any speed less than 1/400 sec is to risky and can produce such a poor and blurry result as seen on that "winning" image. Set ISO to higher number, shot at higher speeds... PITTY

4. Color aberations all over the image... Almost white (burned) sky, contrasted to people's figures... VERY DISSAPOINTING

Now,if you're interested, go and take a closer look of (my) "looser" image (one of a whole bunch, some sold to newspapers and portals).

SIMILAR lack of understanding or - eventual BIAS - happens day by day, to many authors that know and are able to and really produce and present here on Pixoto their good photographic works.

When you get on your monitors the images that you can't judge by some firm technical and expressive standards of photography craft and art, please do the fairest of all things: PRESS "SKIP" and vote on the next duel, be it flowers, architecture, cute puppies or whatever you know more about.

And Most Important: FORGET the details about the motive (who, where, when) and try to look and weigh only the craft / art side of the images in duel.

Greetings to All Players and Pixoto Crew from Croatia
Photo of Eli Allan

Eli Allan

  • 4 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Despite all of its technical flaws, the first image is clearly superior. While the second image is technically good, the subject isn't very interesting. Thats the nature of how this works, its not about the process its about the subject. The first image could be greatly improved with the use of fill flash, and perhaps a larger aperture to isolate the subject. The focus is a little bit forward of where it should be, and perhaps better timing might have yielded a more interesting facial expression. What makes the first image work is the intensity of the athlete.
Photo of Tigi Borg

Tigi Borg

  • 108 Posts
  • 19 Reply Likes
Elli, thanks for your observation.

I don't understand which image you refer as "first". Is it of a marathon runner or a schoolboy?

I don't think (as a well educated and appreciated sport photographer) that it is appropriate to shoot even a fill in flash into the face of a man who just runs last meters of his MARATHON RACE (42 km 195 meters). And the guy is 37 years old!

You NEVER flash in sport photography. You simply use faster lenses if needed. And you work with the shutter speeds that by far exceed the sync speeds of a flash.

Have a nice day! :)
Photo of Lee Harris

Lee Harris

  • 7 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Yeah the proper image won that, sorry.
Photo of Miroslava Jurcik

Miroslava Jurcik

  • 12 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I agree you dont use flash on runner ever. But I actually like the second image better, sorry.