Van Gogh vs Ansel Adams

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Dear Sirs :
I would like to know if it's possible to get a refund on my pro subscription. The reason I'd like a refund is because I don't feel that it's fair to have traditional photography compete in the same categories as photo stopped / computer enhanced photos. They are two separate art forms.One is photography and the other is " painting with a camera " Even an Ansel Adams photo wouldn't beat a Van Gogh painting were they considered as the same art forms. I will readily concede that I did not do my homework as regards Pixoto policies regarding the " painting with a camera " issue however the issue remains that they are not the same art forms and if Pixoto represents themselves as a photography site then they are being misleading at best. Failing a resolution of this issue I'm forced to conclude that this site is not for me. I would like a refund of my money please. By the way just so you'll know I have made an entirely reasonable , in my opinion , and to date apparently dismissed out of hand , suggestion that would resolve this problem.
I would appreciate a prompt response to my request from the Pixoto Photo Techno Geek Wizard Administrators please.

Warmest regards

Paul Stanner
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Paul Stanner

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Posted 6 years ago

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Paul Stanner

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Well John Larson for a man with a clear conscience you sure do babble on.It would seem that if my position on " painting with a camera " was as inconsequential as you say then you'd just ignore me but here you are AGAIN being your petulant childish self. It's who you are and what you do apparently. Why do you " painters with a camera " get so petulant when people say you should have your own category / genre? One would think that you guys would take others acknowledgement that you've created your own genre so should be judged against other works of that genre and not against totally different genres as a compliment but NNNNOOO you petulant little children insist on being insulted? I think we both know the reason for that. Bruised egos are terribly difficult to deal with Sir.

Seek therapy.

Paul
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Paul Stanner

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Anne Santostefano you make some very salient points regarding " painting with a camera " as an art form.
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Tim Hall

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Mr. Stanner...The problem I see here is you tend to keep arguing with yourself. Please settle down for a moment and tell us which is it you actually believe because you keep trying to go both ways...First you say a painter with a camera is someone who creates a far from the original scene with his computer. Then you criticize anyone who tweaks their pics at all as being a painter with a camera. Please explain which it is, because it is becoming difficult to keep up with your changes in logic and opinion as your debate points change with each new comment...Is a tweaker like myself, who has never owned lightroom, or photoshop a painter with a camera, or do you think only photoshop fantasy creators are painters with a camera. Please tell us where you draw the line...Tweakers or creators? Or do both deserve to be called painters with a camera? You seem to be going with whichever definition suits your current debate situation. I might actually agree with some of what you say if you could stick to one idea and quit flailing wildly at each person who dares to disagree with you...Painters with cameras are?...Tweakers?...or creators?...or both?
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Joyce Andersen

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Tim, I agree with a good deal of what you have posted... but perhaps we should just ignore the man and his sidekick? I gave up trying to talk to him or engage any sort of reasonable discourse. He will continue to highjack every thread (at last count only a couple of hours ago 8 of 10 of the most recent threads were Paul threads... all on this subject). He is a bitter man, wants to be the center of attention and will insult everyone who does not agree with his world-view. I suspect Jasenka is sitting on hands and biting tongue lol... we need to do the same. eventually he will run out of steam and fall behind. All in favour say Aye!
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Cailin

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Aye!!!!!! :)
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Paul Stanner

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Keyboard Kommando Alert LEVEL 10
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John Larson

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Aye! The best thing to do is just not respond to his threads anymore, and he will eventually slink away because... NOBODY CARES! Let him just babble on to himself and let's be done with his absurdity and foolishness. All he wants to see is his name on the message board because it's certainly not going to appear under best photographers of the year or his work under top ten or even top 5 or 10% for sure..
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Joyce Andersen

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I forgot to post it as a new comment so couldn't have anyone hit the star... so let me be the first star voter.
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Paul Stanner

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Actually John , Tim , and Joyce no I won't just fade away. I will beat this drum until Pixoto boots me off or until Pixoto develops a fair system. You " painters " probably should avoid me though since your egos are so easily bruised. I wouldn't want to be the reason any of you have a psychotic incident. lol
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Paul Stanner

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Gee Tim just when I thought you might actually be the only reasonable " painter " to date on this thread.
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Tim Hall

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Thanks for the left-handed compliment...I think. As far as the ego bruising goes. If all us post processors had big time egos we wouldn't be editing our photos at all. We would be such intense egotists that we would believe our photos don't need editing. It's always the person with the biggest ego that scorns those around him when they offer help or advice. It's actually the humble ones who seek self improvement. (or in this case...a little color or contrast boost here and there!).
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Anne Santostefano

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Help being a better photographer ? But to truly become a better photographer, one needs to study photography, not editing...you study editing to become a better editor.
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Paul Stanner

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Anne Santostefano you're only going to confuse the " painters " with those Inconvenient Facts lol
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Tim Hall

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Here we go again...The camera is the vehicle, the editing is the fuel...neither can go anywhere without the other. It's easy to tell if one has studied photography, because the first thing one learns is that photography is a two part, two step process...Step one-exposing the media to light...Step two processing the final image...always been that way, always will be. That's the first thing one learns in photography school...expose the light...edit the print... Vehicle and fuel... If you have the desire and passion to go somewhere...you must have both or you won't get very far...even if you walk, your feet are the vehicle and a good breakfast is your fuel,,,Exposure+editing=photography. Studying one without the other is learning only half the medium.
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Anne Santostefano

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I will say this one last time, and one time only and I hope someone finally GETS it. First off, a good photography school first teaches composing, focus, exposure, shutter speed and such...but that's another topic... but AGAIN, editing, ie: tweaking light and dark, maybe rubbing out a spot, and converting to black and white, are all normal parts of photography...the editing I am speaking of, is the addition of over saturated, fake looking colors, textures that didn't exist, clouds and whole sky scenes that did not exist, until it looks more like a drawing or painting than a photograph and truthfully, looks nearly identical to all others like it..Are we clear NOW !!! if not, than I don't know what else to say to make it clearer. And just for the record, I don't find any of those types of "photos" and I use the term loosely, appealing. If I want to look at paintings I will look at paintings, I myself paint and draw. But when I look at photos, I want them to look like photos. Just saying...enough said.
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Tim Hall

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If Paul dropped the term "painters with a camera" for what you just described, and changed it to, "heretics with a camera" I would be more likely to agree.
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Joyce Andersen

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lol lol lol... yeah I am a Painter!!! I don't even have Photoshop! I have agreed that using HDR with halos around everything is shocking to my eyes and over saturated can leave ghost impressions after looking at them for a few seconds... but these photographers can do what they like.. and voters will choose what they want. I vote for the photos that I prefer.., and I submit those that I feel good about. Do I need to win awards to keep photographing? No. nor do I have to tear others down pretending that I am the end all and be all of photographers. The rules work fine for me as they are... I only hope that they can be acted upon in a more timely manner so that the ill-categorized, the duplicates and the copyright infringements stop taking awards away from more deserving images.
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Paul Stanner

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You know Tim I find it very amusing that I had to come to Pixoto to find people that get insulted when they're called painters and also when they are too damn stupid to realize that it's a compliment to them that I said they took one art form and evolved into a completely different art form entirely their own. Why shouldn't they want to be judged against competition from their own genre / category / art form? I would think that type of competition would give them a better sense of the true value of their work. My sole and only point was that it's not a fair competition to have for lack of a better word traditional photography compete with what I call computer painting. You painters CHOSE to be insulted by my position and comments where none was ever said or intended? You painters chose to give a damn what I say about your art? How artistically unconfident are you guys? I assure you all that I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of my talent or lack thereof. I do this for my fun and if other people like it that's fine. I guess I should have expected this sort of reaction from artists that are competeing for prestige and money. And that my friend is ultimately what it's all about to the painters. It doesn't matter to them that the prestige and awards they've won were won dishonestly. The ends justify the means in their minds.

I'll stand by my contention that the " painters with a computer " are all egomaniacs. They can't stand it when somebody calls them on their dishonesty.

Bruised Ego Alert LEVEL 10

Nice speaking with a semi reasonable " painter " .

See you around or not. Your choice.
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Tim Hall

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Some here know that they are "complete photographers" because they are putting forth the time and effort it takes to learn both halves of the medium of photography. We are not the ones acting insulted. You are the one using phrases like, "are you blind" and, "you are stupid" and using lol lol lol, etc. You are the one who is acting very insulted here. You are the one denying the truth that photography is a two step medium. Some are getting irritated because we are trying to help you become a complete photographer (yes, a painter with light, like Ansel Adams) rather than just a camera pointer. We feel for you because you only seem to want a half knowledge of photography...If I could show you some post processing tid bits I would be thrilled if your photos beat the you-know-what out all my photos on this website because I would know i was doing the right thing, because the person who took the time teach me how to express myself with images I like was kind to me. PS, I like the award format of Pixoto, and the image dual way to earn points...but the comments from other photographers are much more meaningful then the wins and losses. I'm quickly becoming an old geezer, I was born long before computers were invented, and the other day someone from as far away as Viet Nam favorited one of my images...that's mind boggling to me, I make a picture and in seconds someone on the other side of the world can see it, and tell me they like it, that is crazy...If a little post processing can bring that kind of joy..I'm all for it!
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Paul Stanner

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Gee Joyce I had no idea that calling somebody a painter and stating that the " painters with a camera " evolved photography into a whole new art form which I call " painting with a camera " would ever be considered insulting. You " painters " chose to be insulted when no insult was ever spoken or intended by me. I posted a serious thread for serious discussion and look where your " painters " took it. Talk about GIANT egos. lol
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Tim Hall

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You don't even realize your not insulting us, your insulting the very medium of photography itself. We are not defending ourselves, we are defending photography...By the content of your posts you continue to prove you don't understand what the very definition of photography is. Shooting pictures is only half the definition. All the masters of old and modern times post processed their work. You think you are the first person in history who doesn't need to learn post process printing. You claim to be a more pure photographer than Ansel Adams and then accuse others of big egos Wow. The way it has panned out here is you didn't want a serious discussion after all, you only wanted people to agree with you. That is where the ego lies...Your ego is the one hurting because you have realized there is more to photography then choosing how and what to point the camera at, and you don't like it...that's not anyone's fault but your own...Believe me, if I was as far of the mark as you are, I would hope someone had the compassion to tell me these things. Exposure+processing=photography..Period, end of the story. Shooting pictures is the fun half, the post processing half is too much work for some. No amount of ego can change these truths..
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Cailin

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Stop feeding the troll, Tim...you're only giving him fuel to keep on hogging all the threads! I DO hope Pixoto will finally decide to do what's right and kick him out of here.
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EBR

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If I were you I would now leave this site.....your way of thinking is that of a person who doesn't want to learn something new.
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Jasenka, Official Rep

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This is not constructive conversation any more, so topic is closed.

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