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What is the uncategorised category for? Right now its filled with shots that do fit in other categories?
I've just read the description...and confess I wonder why it's there. I presume it still costs the same amount of credits to enter, and for that you gain nothing? Do you get awards...which also seems wrong.
I've just read the description...and confess I wonder why it's there. I presume it still costs the same amount of credits to enter, and for that you gain nothing? Do you get awards...which also seems wrong.
Posted 6 years ago
Jasenka, Official Rep
I mistakenly uploaded a photo as "uncategorized" and now I can't change it. I wonder if this category is full of new users making mistakes like me.
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
Sorry about this Patricia - you can change the category of your image by clicking on "Resubmit" and following the prompts.
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
For some additional information about the uncategorized category please read this blog post. http://blog.pixoto.com/2014/06/new-su...
I would love to hear your feedback. Certainly the hope here is that people will use it if they have a lot of images to upload but don't have time to fill out the category for each one. If we find that it is being used in some other way or is detrimental to the Pixoto experience - we will make changes.
I would love to hear your feedback. Certainly the hope here is that people will use it if they have a lot of images to upload but don't have time to fill out the category for each one. If we find that it is being used in some other way or is detrimental to the Pixoto experience - we will make changes.
Hi Jason, there was a lot of feed back... when do you have time for an overall response?
I still don't see why you are giving awards-and I presume you cannot enter a shot in this and also in one of the proper categories?? Or at least I hope you cannot.
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
We still want people to have fun submitting uncategorized photos and winning awards is a big part of that. Can you explain your concern with people winning awards in Uncategorized? I'm interested in your perspective.
The uncategorized category will not be moderated for duplicates.
The uncategorized category will not be moderated for duplicates.
I know the uncategorised won't be monitored. Does that mean someone can enter a shot there and also the same shot in a proper category? And win awards for both?
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
We automatically block duplicate images. But if it is very similar than yes...
To me, this doesn't build Pixoto up, it instead drags it down. By allowing duplicates in this category, Pixoto has immediately created an unfair playing field. It's hard for me to comprehend how it can be thought that competing in that atmosphere is something that is "fun".
And to then award those who don't have to play fair with the exact same award that the rest of us earn legitimately is, frankly, insulting to everyone who plays by the rules.
If someone wants to upload a lot of images but doesn't have the time to categorize them properly, then they certainly don't have a lot of pride in their work and absolutely are doing it only as a lark. That should be discouraged, not encouraged!
This also raises another question: if someone can upload a lot of images, where did they get the credits to do so? If they've got the time to vote in the duels to rack up the credits, then they've got the time to properly categorize their uploads.
I realize that people do struggle over categories. To me, the answer is to make that easier rather than side-stepping and avoiding the category issue by getting them to lump their photos into one big free-for-all. For those who are legitimately fussed over what category to choose, it would have made a lot more sense, in my opinion, for Pixoto to create a category called Pending, which would cost zero credits to upload to, until the actual category is chosen of course, where the photos would sit (maybe for a while) and not duel until they get categorized by either a Pixoto staff member or even create trusted members of the community who could have access to choosing the category for photos in Pending. Heck, you don't even have to go that far -- just create a Pending category that has a field for category suggestions for each photo in it and encourage all of to regularly check the Pending category to help. Encourage staff members to do so as well. The person uploading the photo could read those suggestions to help them make their decision and then spend their 10 credits to upload the photo.
And to then award those who don't have to play fair with the exact same award that the rest of us earn legitimately is, frankly, insulting to everyone who plays by the rules.
If someone wants to upload a lot of images but doesn't have the time to categorize them properly, then they certainly don't have a lot of pride in their work and absolutely are doing it only as a lark. That should be discouraged, not encouraged!
This also raises another question: if someone can upload a lot of images, where did they get the credits to do so? If they've got the time to vote in the duels to rack up the credits, then they've got the time to properly categorize their uploads.
I realize that people do struggle over categories. To me, the answer is to make that easier rather than side-stepping and avoiding the category issue by getting them to lump their photos into one big free-for-all. For those who are legitimately fussed over what category to choose, it would have made a lot more sense, in my opinion, for Pixoto to create a category called Pending, which would cost zero credits to upload to, until the actual category is chosen of course, where the photos would sit (maybe for a while) and not duel until they get categorized by either a Pixoto staff member or even create trusted members of the community who could have access to choosing the category for photos in Pending. Heck, you don't even have to go that far -- just create a Pending category that has a field for category suggestions for each photo in it and encourage all of to regularly check the Pending category to help. Encourage staff members to do so as well. The person uploading the photo could read those suggestions to help them make their decision and then spend their 10 credits to upload the photo.
I also imagine that it costs 10 credits to post in this, should a person make a mistake, or realise they want in a proper category, then it will cost them a further amount of credits to move it?
Just another nail in the coffin for Pixoto, the site really is becoming a joke and people are actually paying good money to use it. Well done Jason you have excelled this time.
Can the Uncategorized category images be sold?
Please explain the point - "Are submitted as editorial only (Pixoto moderators will make the best market images available as commercial stock)"
Please explain the point - "Are submitted as editorial only (Pixoto moderators will make the best market images available as commercial stock)"
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
All uncategorized images are put in the market but are not made available for commercial sale. We will select the best that do not included trademarked images or people and make those available for commercial sale.
Okay Jason, I have more comments to add besides the lengthy comment I already left here. I just clicked on your link and read through. The following is based on what I read.
Firstly, what's with this: "....you don’t have to spend hours using tedious drop downs to get them in the right categories and subcategories". Hours? Hours! Exaggerate much? But it gets better. "....the single biggest obstacle for people to upload photos is the amount of time it takes to type, categorize and subcategorize each one". Really, that's the single biggest obstacle? I must have missed the questionnaire. I don't recall ever being sent a survey that asked me what my biggest obstacle was to upload photos. I don't recall that ever being asked in this forum.
And I would contend that it's not an obstacle whatsoever. I just uploaded a photo as a test .... it took more time staring at the screen waiting for the image to upload than the actual process after that -- once it was uploaded, it took mere seconds to get it published. You don't have to type a single thing. I didn't this time -- no title, click on the category, click on the sub-category. Done. Seconds.
Then there is the issue of quality. Early on, the piece states, "Furthermore successful mutli-subject categories like Black & White have shown us that we can get great photographic diversity and bring amazing photos to the top of the leaderboard in mixed subject categories.". So, that sounds like you're expecting "amazing" photos to be in this category. Pixoto has high expectations that the images will be terrific, right? Hold on, not so fast. Read a bit more and suddenly that tone has changed. "We believe it is likely that the overall quality of Uncategorized images will be lower than that of more carefully considered submissions." So, now, Pixoto expects the photos to be lower quality than in the other categories and, perhaps worse, also contends that the choice of Uncategorized is done by those who do not carefully consider their submissions.
Yet, Pixoto wants these same people, who don't have the time or the inclination to "carefully consider" the images they upload, to "choose a few hundred (or thousand) images and try them out." So, let me get this straight. In order to upload a few hundred, at 10 credits each, the member is going to have to already have a bucketload of credits. That's going to require a lot of voting, yet by the article's own words, they are being uploaded without careful consideration. That doesn't leave any confidence that they are going to be voting with careful consideration either.
Then there's the issue of the utilization of staff time. We've been told numerous times that the staff don't have time to act on reports any faster, we've all seen photos that are obviously miscategorized winning awards because the report team just can't work through the reports in time to prevent that, and we've been told that Pixoto can't police its own categories because there isn't enough staff to take the time to do that. Yet, I read this, "Pixoto moderators will go through the best of the Uncategorized images and assign search terms/keywords so that they will appear in the correct stock and art shop searches." And, there's also this, "Pixoto moderators will make the best market images available as commercial stock".
The amount of time that task is going to take, as well as the time it is going to take for Pixoto staff to determine if the images are even eligible for stock (lack of model or property releases, etc.), should be spent policing the boards looking for miscategorized images -- there are legitimate problems on this site and instead of creating new work for staff, my opinion is that the staff should be spending their time fixing the issues that exist instead of taking on the task of something that should be done by the members. If someone wants their photos to sell then they should be willing to invest a little bit of their time to facilitate that. Is Pixoto also going to go through the top photos in each category assigning correct keywords etc? And if not, why not? Why would those members who choose Uncategorized get better treatment than the ones who actually took the time to choose a category?
This whole thing just baffles me. If you want a no-stress, "fun" area, with no moderation whatsoever, then by all means create a free-for-all category and let folks go to town with it -- but there should be no awards and those images should not be in the Market. Leave the Market and the Awards to those with the "careful consideration".
Firstly, what's with this: "....you don’t have to spend hours using tedious drop downs to get them in the right categories and subcategories". Hours? Hours! Exaggerate much? But it gets better. "....the single biggest obstacle for people to upload photos is the amount of time it takes to type, categorize and subcategorize each one". Really, that's the single biggest obstacle? I must have missed the questionnaire. I don't recall ever being sent a survey that asked me what my biggest obstacle was to upload photos. I don't recall that ever being asked in this forum.
And I would contend that it's not an obstacle whatsoever. I just uploaded a photo as a test .... it took more time staring at the screen waiting for the image to upload than the actual process after that -- once it was uploaded, it took mere seconds to get it published. You don't have to type a single thing. I didn't this time -- no title, click on the category, click on the sub-category. Done. Seconds.
Then there is the issue of quality. Early on, the piece states, "Furthermore successful mutli-subject categories like Black & White have shown us that we can get great photographic diversity and bring amazing photos to the top of the leaderboard in mixed subject categories.". So, that sounds like you're expecting "amazing" photos to be in this category. Pixoto has high expectations that the images will be terrific, right? Hold on, not so fast. Read a bit more and suddenly that tone has changed. "We believe it is likely that the overall quality of Uncategorized images will be lower than that of more carefully considered submissions." So, now, Pixoto expects the photos to be lower quality than in the other categories and, perhaps worse, also contends that the choice of Uncategorized is done by those who do not carefully consider their submissions.
Yet, Pixoto wants these same people, who don't have the time or the inclination to "carefully consider" the images they upload, to "choose a few hundred (or thousand) images and try them out." So, let me get this straight. In order to upload a few hundred, at 10 credits each, the member is going to have to already have a bucketload of credits. That's going to require a lot of voting, yet by the article's own words, they are being uploaded without careful consideration. That doesn't leave any confidence that they are going to be voting with careful consideration either.
Then there's the issue of the utilization of staff time. We've been told numerous times that the staff don't have time to act on reports any faster, we've all seen photos that are obviously miscategorized winning awards because the report team just can't work through the reports in time to prevent that, and we've been told that Pixoto can't police its own categories because there isn't enough staff to take the time to do that. Yet, I read this, "Pixoto moderators will go through the best of the Uncategorized images and assign search terms/keywords so that they will appear in the correct stock and art shop searches." And, there's also this, "Pixoto moderators will make the best market images available as commercial stock".
The amount of time that task is going to take, as well as the time it is going to take for Pixoto staff to determine if the images are even eligible for stock (lack of model or property releases, etc.), should be spent policing the boards looking for miscategorized images -- there are legitimate problems on this site and instead of creating new work for staff, my opinion is that the staff should be spending their time fixing the issues that exist instead of taking on the task of something that should be done by the members. If someone wants their photos to sell then they should be willing to invest a little bit of their time to facilitate that. Is Pixoto also going to go through the top photos in each category assigning correct keywords etc? And if not, why not? Why would those members who choose Uncategorized get better treatment than the ones who actually took the time to choose a category?
This whole thing just baffles me. If you want a no-stress, "fun" area, with no moderation whatsoever, then by all means create a free-for-all category and let folks go to town with it -- but there should be no awards and those images should not be in the Market. Leave the Market and the Awards to those with the "careful consideration".
good points, I have to just add that perhaps not all who post in the uncategorised want to sell their shots so surely Pixoto can't just presume they do and make them available.
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
Lenore. Thank your for your carefully considered feedback. You make very good points but, needless to say, I do disagree with you a bit. Let me first start by saying that in order to make a revolutionary product you have to take chances and try things that you don't know whether they will work or not. Some things will - some wont. I don't know if uncategorized is going to work or not - but I definitely feel that it is worth a try.
To summarize I think your basic arguments against uncategorized are:
1) It's OK to have an unmoderated category - but you don't feel they should get awards
2) It will take time away from the moderation team to add best images to the market - time they can't afford
3) For a variety of reasons you don't think it will work (i.e. we won't get images and we certainly won't get good images).
Is this about right?
Some thoughts on each.
1) They aren't really the same awards. They don't have points and they can't earn money. Furthermore awards in our current categories are not comparable, earning an award in the novice category or the illustration category requires a completely different level of skill than people or landscape. They aren't even comparable. So given this - I'm not quite sure what the objection to giving awards to uncategorized images is. On the other hand - not only are awards fun but because they are shared - they help Pixoto grow.
2) Since all uncategorized images are NOT available for commercial sale by default going through and keywording them and making them available is not a high priority. We will do this only as time allows and when the quality of the images that are available justify this. It is not the same people as the moderation team that works on reports. I don't anticipate even starting this for a couple of months (i.e. once the number of images has increased).
3) You may be right. It may not work for all of the reasons you stated. But on the other hand it might and I think it's worth a shot.
Thanks again.
To summarize I think your basic arguments against uncategorized are:
1) It's OK to have an unmoderated category - but you don't feel they should get awards
2) It will take time away from the moderation team to add best images to the market - time they can't afford
3) For a variety of reasons you don't think it will work (i.e. we won't get images and we certainly won't get good images).
Is this about right?
Some thoughts on each.
1) They aren't really the same awards. They don't have points and they can't earn money. Furthermore awards in our current categories are not comparable, earning an award in the novice category or the illustration category requires a completely different level of skill than people or landscape. They aren't even comparable. So given this - I'm not quite sure what the objection to giving awards to uncategorized images is. On the other hand - not only are awards fun but because they are shared - they help Pixoto grow.
2) Since all uncategorized images are NOT available for commercial sale by default going through and keywording them and making them available is not a high priority. We will do this only as time allows and when the quality of the images that are available justify this. It is not the same people as the moderation team that works on reports. I don't anticipate even starting this for a couple of months (i.e. once the number of images has increased).
3) You may be right. It may not work for all of the reasons you stated. But on the other hand it might and I think it's worth a shot.
Thanks again.
Jason, thank you for your response; I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I also understand the need for innovation and that what seems like a good idea might not work, just like what seems like a bad idea can turn out to be a good one. That doesn't mean I think this is a good idea :-) of course, but I understand all the ongoing attempts to make PIxoto a success and can take no fault with that :-). I am not trying to be a Negative Nellie whatsoever, just point out what I see as the shortcomings.
With regards to the awards, you say that they are not the same awards and I realize that YOU know they are not the same awards. But how is anyone else expected to know that? If someone takes #1 for the day in Uncategorized and that award appears above their photos, is it going to differ in appearance from the awards earned in the other categories? You have a Rising Star award and it is easily distinguishable from the main awards, for example. If a photographer's skill level is such that they cannot obtain a top-ten finish in the other categories and can only do so in an unmoderated category, it seems quite unfair to offer them what looks like the exact same award you give to those that do earn higher scores in the other categories. You use Novice and Illustration as examples of easier categories than People or Landscape to do well in, and that is absolutely correct, and the winners do get the same award, but the issue isn't the lack of strong competition at all -- those categories are subject to moderation such as the exclusion of duplicates; they offer a level playing field to everyone who competes (and not everyone can compete in Novice, for that matter). This new category is not an equal to the other categories because of this -- it is not a level playing field. Moderate the category and then I would agree that the awards should be the same.
One other thought. If this is supposed to be a fun way to win awards, that seems to indicate that that would appeal to those who are having difficulty winning awards in all the main categories. I get that. In order to make it easier for those folks to win awards, perhaps anyone who has already won a high award at Pixoto (top-10 of a week or month, perhaps) should not be permitted to enter photos into Uncategorized, much in the same way Pixoto prohibits members to enter the Novice category once they have earned one of the higher awards. If already-successful Pixoto photographers dominate this category -- perhaps filling it up with water lilies and wet roses -- it's not going to be fun at all for the others :-)
With regards to the awards, you say that they are not the same awards and I realize that YOU know they are not the same awards. But how is anyone else expected to know that? If someone takes #1 for the day in Uncategorized and that award appears above their photos, is it going to differ in appearance from the awards earned in the other categories? You have a Rising Star award and it is easily distinguishable from the main awards, for example. If a photographer's skill level is such that they cannot obtain a top-ten finish in the other categories and can only do so in an unmoderated category, it seems quite unfair to offer them what looks like the exact same award you give to those that do earn higher scores in the other categories. You use Novice and Illustration as examples of easier categories than People or Landscape to do well in, and that is absolutely correct, and the winners do get the same award, but the issue isn't the lack of strong competition at all -- those categories are subject to moderation such as the exclusion of duplicates; they offer a level playing field to everyone who competes (and not everyone can compete in Novice, for that matter). This new category is not an equal to the other categories because of this -- it is not a level playing field. Moderate the category and then I would agree that the awards should be the same.
One other thought. If this is supposed to be a fun way to win awards, that seems to indicate that that would appeal to those who are having difficulty winning awards in all the main categories. I get that. In order to make it easier for those folks to win awards, perhaps anyone who has already won a high award at Pixoto (top-10 of a week or month, perhaps) should not be permitted to enter photos into Uncategorized, much in the same way Pixoto prohibits members to enter the Novice category once they have earned one of the higher awards. If already-successful Pixoto photographers dominate this category -- perhaps filling it up with water lilies and wet roses -- it's not going to be fun at all for the others :-)
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
Lenore - I see what you mean. That said there are already more images in uncategorized than there is in a week in all of illustration and traditional art (or any but the top 5 categories and it hasn't even been 2 days - so winning a top 10 award in Uncategorized will be VERY difficult.
I will keep an eye on whether duplication/similar images becomes a significant problem in uncategorized (remember also that you can not resubmit to uncategorized - it has to be a fresh image) and I may change our position on that if it does. If you see it becoming a problem - please feel free to let me know. For now however I would suggest that we all see what happens...
I will keep an eye on whether duplication/similar images becomes a significant problem in uncategorized (remember also that you can not resubmit to uncategorized - it has to be a fresh image) and I may change our position on that if it does. If you see it becoming a problem - please feel free to let me know. For now however I would suggest that we all see what happens...
Ah, but did you not think that it wouldn't be noticed that the category was flooded with images from both you and Jasenka? And perhaps other staffers too.....I don't know who all is affiliated with Pixoto personally or professionally ;-)
Jason Kiefer, Official Rep
Jasenka and I uploaded images so that there would some images their to pair with and to see how it was working. Certainly wasn't trying to hide it. But my statement is true even if you exclude both of ours. We are the only Pixoto employees who have uploaded.
You are just making a mockery of everything.
The biggest problem is you can't ever admit that you got it wrong.
I think that's a really good point Lenore made about already successful photographers starting to post in this category, and I can see it happening. I think she has said very well, and much better than I, my concerns.
For the users who are new, we already have a Novice category, so making this category available only for newcomers (who have not received certain awards) is not just. I am not sure what purpose this new Uncategorised category would serve and since it is open for all, I have also posted a few pics in this category.
I wasn't meaning it should be for only new photographers, I was agreeing with the point Lenore made in her last sentence above.
Dipali, my suggestion was not that the cutoff point for Uncategorized should be the exact same as Novice and I apologize if it came across that way. I think it should be higher. In other words, there are many who cannot post to Novice because of the awards they've received, but they could still post to Uncategorized because they haven't yet reached the upper plateau (which would be determined by Pixoto).
Sorry Terry and Lenore, I misunderstood. I think we do not need a category of Uncategorized images, after all, our images in categorized categories can be submitted without keywords, without description and without title. We just need to add the category and subcategory. So there is no typing hassle there. In my opinion if we need to make another category we should make a category of Editorial use images where the users do not need to submit the model releases and cannot profit commercially and less policing will be required regarding the model releases from the Pixoto staff. Also they would be of all categories too. Just my thoughts.
No worries :-) I can never quite get a handle on whether Pixoto wants to be known as a stock photography site like Shutterstock, for example, or a photo-sharing site, like Flickr. I think they want to be both but they offer neither the quality control of a stock site nor a customizable and rule-free experience like a sharing site. The competition aspect does make them stand out but there are too many miscategorized and watermarked images that negatively affect the duels before they are moved or deleted to regard that with any seriousness. That can be fixed, but the policing of the site needs to be taken over by staff members for that to happen. In my opinion anyway.... :-)
You're right!
What if i report those uncategorised images to put them in their proper category would the team do it? LOL
this category is not being monitored.....
I think it's a place where you can put your very similar pix and get an award but without any points and monetary reward
I think it's a place where you can put your very similar pix and get an award but without any points and monetary reward
There have been many changes on here, some for the better, some for the worse, but I can honestly say this is the worst one ever! Please remove this "category" as soon as possible!!!
voted.
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep