New duelling system like swimming through toffee - and broken to boot

  • 3
  • Problem
  • Updated 7 years ago
  • Solved
Archived and Closed

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies and is no longer visible to community members. The community moderator provided the following reason for archiving: Solved

New duelling system sucks. It's too long, and it's losing half my duels again. Now not only does it take me ages to get 10 points to submit just one image, it's making me vote 20 times to get the damn 10 points. Congratulations to all those complaining about bad votes and suggesting this as a solution, hope you now realise how unusable it's become.
Photo of Darrell Raw

Darrell Raw

  • 635 Posts
  • 200 Reply Likes

Posted 7 years ago

  • 3
Photo of Darrell Raw

Darrell Raw

  • 635 Posts
  • 200 Reply Likes
Oh and the first two votes I got on this system? Both bad votes...it's not solved a damn thing except to encourage me to get the hell out.
Photo of Terry Gower

Terry Gower

  • 2016 Posts
  • 633 Reply Likes
what new duelling system?
Photo of Darrell Raw

Darrell Raw

  • 635 Posts
  • 200 Reply Likes
There's now a 3 second delay before you can vote again. And it's losing half the votes.
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 3044 Posts
  • 414 Reply Likes
Darrell - I'm sorry you feel this way. We are currently only running the duel timer (it requires you to view each pair of images for 2 seconds) on 10% of our users. I guess you were one of the "lucky" few. We have resisted implementing this - but feedback from some pre-beta testers was that while it felt a little slower it definitely made you think more deliberately about the images. We have a quality score that we can generate from the results of this test to see if it is materially better. If it is not, or has too adverse an effect on duel numbers, we will get rid of it.

As to the lost credits - we are doing a series of releases right now and it likely caused some duels not to save. We added the credit counter in upper right corner based on your feedback so that you can see if credits are counting correctly. Please let me know if you continue to experience this issue.
Photo of Susan Ballou

Susan Ballou

  • 3 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Actually, it doesn't make me think any longer about an image... it makes me want to stop messing with Pixoto. Please consider removing this "feature".

Forgive me, but most pictures "pop" if you like them.

If a set of pics doesn't pop or if they both pop, then I CAN CHOOSE TO DELAY MY ANSWER, but please stop policing the time one has to choose an image.
Photo of Shutterbug

Shutterbug

  • 29 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
lucky me.. not....took me ages to vote this morning.. and I peruse each one... dont just click away... two sec delay is more like 3 - could live with a 1.5 delay.. and it wont even let you report images while the delay is on..too slow and time consuming
Photo of Di Elderton

Di Elderton

  • 99 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes
I agree,they 'pop' instantly, or one takes a few moments to choose....irritating delay,I've found myself watching the delay timer instead of studying the images further especially if I've chosen or want to skip...get rid please.
Photo of Darrell Raw

Darrell Raw

  • 635 Posts
  • 200 Reply Likes
The counter is how I know it's not saving them. I've timed the delay period before I can vote again, and it's definitely 3 seconds, I don't know if that's a browser/internet delay or not but the duel doesn't become active immediately as the timer finishes. The lost credits are a very important factor to me, particularly as there is only an hour and a half before the close of the weekly competition - meaning I'm struggling to resubmit/post pictures I want to be in this weeks comp.
Photo of Terry Gower

Terry Gower

  • 2016 Posts
  • 633 Reply Likes
I honestly don't think a delay in allowing you to vote again will make any difference to those who vote randomly,the rest of us probably already take a moment automatically.
Photo of Mihaly Istvan

Mihaly Istvan

  • 20 Posts
  • 3 Reply Likes
I love this delay on voting!
I'm shore that it's not working perfectly and probably some improvement should be done but in long term this will eliminate the blind voting or robotic like voting. If so ... in some cases Pixoto can prove if a member voted racionally or just made some "lobby" for someone ...
If you cannot controll this, 90% of the members will vote only for lobby/blind/in a hurry but not for quality.
So ... I'm happy! :)
& Thanks!
Photo of Mark Zouroudis

Mark Zouroudis

  • 908 Posts
  • 348 Reply Likes
I must be one of the "lucky" 10% also. There are times when you need some time to pick the best pic and others when you can tell almost instantaneously. It is definitely longer than two seconds and can be a pain. Factor in reporting watermarks and wrongly categorised pics it becomes very tedious.
Photo of Mihaly Istvan

Mihaly Istvan

  • 20 Posts
  • 3 Reply Likes
I agree with you that in a few cases we stay and look at twoo bad pictures ... in this case I use "skip" :)
And I agree that is boring to raport wrong categories & watermarks, but I think we must keep clean and everyone should do this even if it's boring.
In the end is better this way than upsetting to see eye cahting but low quality pictures in the top 10 ...
Photo of Mark Zouroudis

Mark Zouroudis

  • 908 Posts
  • 348 Reply Likes
Mihaly I always do report, what I am saying is that when you are trying to get credits together to submit, boost and unpause pics it makes you think twice about reporting every single one that needs reporting knowing that someone else will probably pick it up.

I am wondering if it's possible to have the system tell us that a pic has already been reported when we hit the report button?

Why the delay on 10% of users only? Why not everyone.

I probably wont submit anything today and will spend my time building credits so that I can have a clear day tomorrow not having to worry about voting to have to boost and unpause.
Photo of Dipali

Dipali

  • 1846 Posts
  • 94 Reply Likes
I think it's not that bad. It will certainly stop the selecting of images by some players without looking at the quality. It will slow down the gain of credits, but I think it's worth it. It's like the lengthy security system the airports follow. We do not like it but it saves our lives. For now,I like it.
Photo of Mihaly Istvan

Mihaly Istvan

  • 20 Posts
  • 3 Reply Likes
Darrell has right in one issue: if your lag is more than 1s the 2s delay becomes 3s of waiting ...
Anyway I prefer this instead of blind voting, but if it is possible 1-1.5s should be enough (+1) to see clearly the two pics.
Photo of Joyce Andersen

Joyce Andersen

  • 1078 Posts
  • 254 Reply Likes
try having a delay of up to 2 minutes!! my internet here at oilrig camp is awful and I take forever to get a handful of credits
Photo of Nedeljko Energija

Nedeljko Energija

  • 109 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes
This is great and can only annoy those who just randomly vote and only encourage their photos.
Photo of Mark Zouroudis

Mark Zouroudis

  • 908 Posts
  • 348 Reply Likes
I can assure your that I do not randomly vote Nedeljko. There are times that you need to take time and select the "best" pic. other times it takes less than a second. It's a pain waiting for the times that you can see straight off which is the best pic.
Photo of Di Elderton

Di Elderton

  • 99 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes
I agree Mark
Photo of Lissa Apples

Lissa Apples

  • 162 Posts
  • 41 Reply Likes
I'm one of the lucky ones too, lol. I have really fast internet, and it's still 3 seconds for me too. Right on the nose, every time. And it's the same for all my devices, and at home and at work.
Photo of Darrell Raw

Darrell Raw

  • 635 Posts
  • 200 Reply Likes
Seems to me that given vote quality is monitored already by the "bad vote" algorithm, surely instead of penalising everyone with a delay, you should link the two and have a delay of say 1 sec kick in on the first time someone is detected of suspicious voting, which will then be removed if their voting improves, or increased to 2 sec if not. You could have 4 stages, 1 sec delay, 2 sec delay, 3 sec delay, and then the suspension. This gives people a chance to rectify their voting patterns (or at the very least explain/justify) before being automatically banned by the system. People who consistently vote well will then be able to vote at a speed that's comfortable for them instead of waiting and waiting and waiting for the next vote.

I did a lot of voting on the new system last night, and to be honest it's not made one iota of difference to me. I still pick the image I want at first glance, and have not once changed my mind by staring at them for 3 seconds. Most duels have a clear winner, the ones that don't I've always taken my time on anyway.
Photo of Clare Rodgers

Clare Rodgers

  • 54 Posts
  • 17 Reply Likes
Surely a delay in voting doesn't change the actual outcome? It just makes you wait. Jason has said the idea of voting on Pixoto is to go with your immediate emotional response, so dragging your emotional response out over 3 seconds merely enhances another emotion - that of irritation.

As I understand it, from all the posts on here, the opinion seems to be that there is rigged/dodgy voting going on - be it automated voting, or getting all your photo club friends to vote for your water lily (sorry people, I mentioned the W L words....)

So, given that you can track who voted, where they voted from - surely you can generate reports indicating if an above average percentage of votes (for or against an image) are coming from the same location as an image owner, or from the same accounts? In fact, are you not already?

Then you can put a delay on their voting/warn them/discount their votes as preferred?

Your problem then might be feeding back to users as to why their scores adjust last minute, but if it's made part of the awards routine and everybody knows the awards aren't definite til it's done and the fat lady is singing.....Maybe by not showing the daily score til the awards are out? (added bonus being that if there really is dodgy voting, they at least can't see who to pick on for the day....)

Plus, in the spirit of transparency, you could perhaps use those voting reports to provide anonymised data to users on their photos. They could view their photo and see where, geographically, their yes/no votes are placed - which would either make their suspicions into fact (and you could then work on that as you'd have solid data to work with) or prove that the voting is truly fair and then you've made Sherry's life easier on the forums! :P
Photo of Terry Gower

Terry Gower

  • 2016 Posts
  • 633 Reply Likes
The delay in voting won't affect anything, not to those who just click which is surely what you are trying to eliminate.It might slow them down but it won't stop them.
It would be better to act quicker on reports and to ban those who repeatedly break the rules.
Also restrict the number of entries per person per day, there can be no real need to enter the same subject shot from slightly varying angles 20 times in one day.
Photo of Mihaly Istvan

Mihaly Istvan

  • 20 Posts
  • 3 Reply Likes
I like how the Leaderboard look's now. I prefer this instead of twenty millions of the same picture ...
I have a few conclusions to:
- I'm not motivated to submit pictures that will not pass 500 points - so I'll choose carefully
- I'll not resubmit pictures as often as I did before
- I had enough time to see watermarks or other irregularity
- I don't have the possibility to hurry just to aquire points

The bottom line: for me it is ok.
What I suggest to change is the delay period, from 2 to 1 second. This means that we will be able to vote in 2 seconds (1+ 1 second lag)
If it is not possible you have to reconsider the min 60 votes/picture/day what is generated by the voting system to 35-40 ... Even if I had duelboost ...
Photo of Darrell Raw

Darrell Raw

  • 635 Posts
  • 200 Reply Likes
The leaderboard hasn't changed....only 10% of us "lucky" users are on the delay system, this is not enough to affect the leaderboard in any significant way. I will however say that I've noticed a severe INCREASE in crappy voting overnight, as well as a massive discrepancy in votes allocated to images in yesterdays competition. Those submitted early in the day got 3-4 times MORE votes than good performing images submitted near the end of the day.

This is in direct contradiction to Pixoto's statement that later submitted images will get faster votes to achieve a roughly even quantity by award time. I could of course have boosted them, except that it's such a major pain in the ass to vote now I don't think I'll bother.

The algorithm has also been tweaked in a way that severely disadvantages my own images so I see no point in continuing trying to compete with over processed water lilies and digital art dahlias (I mean seriously people, those damn things look like paintings, but you're voting for them?) so either I move to Thailand and specialise in water lilies, become a master manipulator of dahlias, or call it quits and abandon Pixoto as a good idea gone badly wrong.
Photo of Mihaly Istvan

Mihaly Istvan

  • 20 Posts
  • 3 Reply Likes
PS: I miss that fav button from the voting page
Photo of Susan Ballou

Susan Ballou

  • 3 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
This delay is frustrating and ridiculous. I vote for the pictures I like. It does not take me 3 seconds to decide because most of the good pics are evident. Thus making the dueling process a grueling process that will inevitably prevent my return.

I am limited on my computer time because of health reasons... if you are going to penalize me for knowing what I like, then I guess I'm no longer a valued member of this community.
Photo of Lissa Apples

Lissa Apples

  • 162 Posts
  • 41 Reply Likes
There's a bug in the "delayed vote" system that exploits the period of time between the vote and loading of the next image. I did it by accident when I double clicked an image, then tried it a few more times just to make sure.

I'm not a fan of the delay, to be honest. But if it's the new "norm" then I would also prefer it not to have this bug; as it still allows for "cheating" in voting simply to up credits, thus making it possible to vote for an image before even seeing it, and completely nullifying the purpose of the delay in the first place.

If I figured this out by accident, I'm sure some others have too.
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 3044 Posts
  • 414 Reply Likes
Thank you all for your feedback.  We will disable this system on Tuesday and will the analyze results.  We may also try a shorter timer (1 second maybe) and see the impact there but rest assured that this will be seen by a different group of users.  I'm sorry for the frustration this has caused but please keep in mind that this was put in place to try to make Pixoto a better place for everyone.  If we don't try things like this - then we'll never improve.
Photo of Susan Ballou

Susan Ballou

  • 3 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Thanks for understanding Jason!
Photo of Jason Kiefer

Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

  • 3044 Posts
  • 414 Reply Likes
Hi All. The duel timer has been removed. Morgan, our Numbers Guru, now has something to keep him busy...
Photo of Jasenka

Jasenka, Official Rep

  • 18205 Posts
  • 1320 Reply Likes
Thank you Jason, great to hear it is removed :)

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.