Low participation with Pure Photos flag.

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So far only 2.5% of images are being flagged as Pure when submitted. However from looking at the leaderboard it looks like the majority of images should be flagged as Pure. Thus the Pure Photo awards would be fairly meaningless because we would not have high enough participation. It's making us question this strategy because it just doesn't seem to be that important to people. Feedback appreciated...
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Posted 8 years ago

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Jbern B. Eugenio

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Thanks Jason for the shout out, its because maybe all members is already used to upload immediately and not marking check for the pure photo flags. Any way this is a good idea, have a nice day :)
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Terry Gower

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Maybe its because people don't really understand what it means...I know I'm not sure.
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Michelle Meenawong

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I think Terry is right. Maybe you should explain on the submit page what a pure photo is. And please keep it, this is great. I can also see that maybe picture are under mature content and then you see a flower or a bridge...!!!!!
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Y-von

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If you click edit and then save it keeps the pure flag. I have been trying to mark all of mine but I have over 500 and it takes a long time. I don't know what good it does to put the flag on your photo if you can only see it when you click on a picture though.
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Linda Clark

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I have flagged some , but please state clearly what you can/cannot do and still flag pure.
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Sherry Andreason

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Hi Linda this is a pretty old thread. Images with little adjustments to color, contrast or white balance are ok but if the image is overly processed it should not be tagged as a PURE image.
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Linda Hayes

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Seems to me 'pure' should be UNTOUCHED...with only the exception of cropping...That is the only pic that is TRULY pure!
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Brandon Rechten

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Why are you responding to a bunch of year-old comments? I had followed this thread a year ago, and it's been dead since then, but now I keep getting emails every time you make a comment -_-

Also, your reasoning doesn't make sense. If you want to allow cropping you should also allow adjusting the brightness, contrast and exposure. All of these are basic darkroom techniques.

"Pure" in the most strict sense would be straight off the camera, no cropping, no adjustments. That really doesn't make any sense either because even with "pure" film photography, before Photoshop, those regulations didn't apply.
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ghislain vancampenhoudt

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There has to be a clear definition of these pictures. Every time I open Photoshop to enhance contrast, sharpness etc. the picture loses its purity....or not ?
IMHO it is difficult to trace the border unless the rules say that no single editing re. these pictures is allowed.
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dickon

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Give us a chance - we're out taking photographs!

I'm sure that in the next couple of weeks there will be better take up as we learn about the new Pure tag.

And maybe a retrospective switchover from our photos tagged 'Pure', too?
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Andrew Halpern

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Maybe making the information easier to access would help to get correct info to the people that need it. It has been suggested many times that you make a few design changes to make the site more intuitive and easier to navigate. I understand you are busy and you may feel that the site is fine the way it is but as they say, the proof is in the pudding. (whatever that means). If the info were easy to find we would not have so many recurring threads asking the same questions over and over again.
Also Jason you need to give this more than a week or 2 to settle in.
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Hi Dickon - I've tried to be really forthcoming with the changes we are making and reasons for it. I hope you agree. I use company updates, emails, and the blog for this communication.
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Andrew Halpern

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I wasn't trying to solve your problems. I was trying to make it easier for the members that actually look for the information they need.:) From what I am seeing on the forums you have not succeeded very well in your effort to make the site self explanatory. But that said this is your site and you will do what you feel is best. Time will tell...
I also don't want to minimize what you have accomplished here either. You have done a wonderful thing here and it has brought lots of happiness to many people. It can be a hard thankless job with no promise of success. I do appreciate all your hard work and the hard work of your team. I hope there are no hard feelings as I am just trying to offer a bit of my 25 years of experience in the Internet and Media industry.
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Sorry Andrew. I thought you referring to the 2% vs 25% issue. So your point is well taken. I will add Rules, Category Descriptions, Help & Community, and Blog to the "Explore" tab. This should make that stuff easier to find. Thanks for the suggestion.

You're right of course that we have not made the site self explanatory as we would like. This is a never ending process. That said we are currently supporting 15,000 unique visitors per day, 350 new members per day, and 5000 images per day and from that we only receive about 10-20 questions. We have no customer support people. Unfortunately of those questions they are very diverse so there isn't a magic bullet to solve them. We try to find the things that are causing the most concern (e.g. cheaters, miss-categorized images, duplicate images, etc) and find solutions to those problems. But this an ongoing process of improvement that will never be complete...

Your feedback has been immensely helpful.
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Andrew Halpern

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Thank you Jason. I appreciate the numbers as well. It helps me understand better what you are dealing with. If I may quote a famous poet. "Keep on Truckin". :)
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dickon

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Jason, very useful to get these stats - and I'm sure that, as you have seen, your User Community has very few 'complaints'. It's a great forum, a cool idea and will only get better.

More users = better experience.

Sorry if we've sounded a bit "complainy" from time to time. It really is a great system.

Thank you.
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Di Elderton

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well...I could've tagged a lot of mine this week as pure,but being honest I didn't (except one which I apologized for in a comment) as most have been HDRized a miniscule amount,probably not enough to notice but just enough to enhance the image imao!
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Dipali

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I think most people do not know the definition of Pure Photo and also it is not visible down below . If you put it somewhere up and put it in bold, maybe people will see it and click it. At present if you hover the question mark you see what Pure Photo means , most people don't do that maybe if the definition is written somewhere next to the checkbox it will be more visible.
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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We'll add "Minimally Processed" next to Pure Photo and see if that helps.
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Dipali

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That would help, along with the changes mentioned above. Thanks!
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Michelle Meenawong

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I think, Jason and his team can improve the clarity of pixoto every day but if people DON'T READ, the problem remains.
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dickon

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You can lead a photographer to water... but you can't make him think?

All that Jason and Co can do is their job. And then hope we'll do OUR part, which is take pictures, submit them thoughtfully, vote in ImageDuels and give good feedback.

As well as read the emails from Pixoto(!)

Otherwise, it's like an unanswered email or a one-sided conversation.

Author Richard Adams (Watership Down) once said that "an unconsidered dream is like an unopened letter".

If we don't read and respond to Pixoto's remarks... imagine how they must feel.

Back to a rainy London, hope it stops so the cameras can come out...
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Michelle Meenawong

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I agree with you Dickon and wish you a nice time in London. There must be a lot of activities over there! Here is just the opposite. NO TOURISTS. I guess they are all in front of their TV at home or... in London. At least we have sun... sun... sun... and hot... hot... hot.
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Richard Foord

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DONT GIVE UP...

Maybe make the flag a little more obvious in the submission.

Start publicizing the best of Pure Photo and this will change fairly quickly.

The reality - once you guys start publishing the best Pure Photo and get it public in the community - everyone will fix this !!!

I didn't know about it until i read this forum (which probably most Pixotoers don't do). Now I am in the habit of using it.
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Riciano

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I think it's a great idea, I marked almost all my new entries as pure. Please keep using this.
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Lorie Carpenter

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I love the idea and have started using it when it applies. I am one that goes for the least editing if I can help it. Some pictures do need changes made so I don't mark them as pure. People need time to adjust to the change. I forgot to mark a photo as pure when I entered it because I am not use to checking that box. I do have a tendency to overlook some things sometimes.....lol
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Doug McCoy

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To me, anything other than cropping is photo-shopping. It's just what and how much is done that separates minor from major.
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Linda Hayes

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YES! I agree with that!...Cropping should be all that is allowed, then there is no 'decision' to make, whether 'pure' or not!
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Andrew Halpern

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We all have our own definition of "photo-shopping" Pixoto just needs a VERY detailed explanation and a few examples of what is acceptable and not acceptable on this site to be able to use the PurePhoto Tag. That way there will be little to no confusion. Just lots of discussion on what needs to be changed about it. :)
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Sandra Kenny-Veech

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AGREE!
Can we crop? Can we brighten? Can we sharpen? (and how much- my Adobe RAW window defaults to sharpening by 25%, but I prefer about 35-40% for most of my images...?) Can we remove a blemish from a nose? Can we add vibrancy? Can we airbrush skin? Can we completely oversaturate someone's eyes so that they look like a doll?
I think we all see the extremes... but where is the defining line?
Here is an example of a BEAUTIFUL photo (please I am not criticizing the photographer in any way)....it is a LOVELY image... but it is labelled pure, and I'm pretty sure the skin and eyes have been photoshopped.
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
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Linda Hayes

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It should be SIMPLY put... Just 'Cropping'...anything else is 'not' what the camera captured...
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Richard Foord

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This is always a difficult one and dividing the line is a challenge.

However - almost the complete industry norm is this.

Editing required to help bring out the expression from the original capture is allowed. Editing that alters the captured image that is inline with the artists vision but fundamentally different to the camera capture is considered "edited" and not pure.

Pure
- dust spec removal
- general, contrast, exposure to bring out richness of image
- minimal sharpening as required to offset sensor blur or pick out relevant fine detail
- subtle dodging and burning
- straight B&W conversion with minimal dodge and burn

Not Pure
- Heavy saturation and vibrance effects that significantly alter the color impact from the original
- Use of artistic filters such as lens blur, selective color etc.
- Signficant alteration of contrast or detail through heavy clarity, or contrast use
- Sepia and dual tone sepia
- extensive after effect plugins such as SilverEfex, OnOne filters etc.
- skin blur and extensive portrait retouch techniques.

Cropping - this entirely depends on how much the effort is on composition as some will limit to 10% crop. I don't think that is appropriate for Pixoto and any crop should be allowed to maintain pure.
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Andrew Halpern

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This is the best explanation I have heard yet. I hope Pixoto uses this as a guide.
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dickon

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Excellent, succinct list of Pure / Impure characteristics.

Let's vote to have these discussed and then adopted.

People?
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Brandon Rechten

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I agree with most of the things listed here, but do disagree with a couple items on the "not pure" list:

1.) Sepia. Sepia is a pretty standard alternative process and has been around well over 100 years ... not sure why this would be discriminated against as it's not terribly different than b&w.

2.) B&W conversions using a plugin such as SilverEfex. Simply desaturating a photo in Photoshop yields pretty flat b&w results. Results similar to those achieved through a plugin like SilverEfex are completely obtainable in the darkroom. Why would this make the photo "not pure"?

In general it's going to be fairly impossible to tell if someone's used an ND filter on their lens or applied the effect in post. Trying to make Pixoto moderators responsible for figuring this stuff out and removing it from the "Pure" category seems excessive. As long as the obviously over-processed and composite images are removed, I personally think that'd be pretty fair.
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Andrew Halpern

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I like your thoughts on this Brandon. They sound very fair.
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Sandra Kenny-Veech

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This is a very good list Richard!
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webruci

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Jason, I personally love this idea (pure) and I upload some pictures like this ! The result is they lost with the ultra enhanced pictures :-( when I saw the duel history, I just can't believe how somebody can select a picture what have nothing with real world colours and atmospheric condition. I not talking about digital art, I taking about Landscape and Nature!
Anyway, I going to upload pure photos in the future because is good to see some natural too :-)
The leader board has some fake in wrong categories and I reported all.
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Sandra Kenny-Veech

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:)
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Michelle Meenawong

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I love the pure photos and hope we can keep it
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Brandon Rechten

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Jason, instead of having Pure Photo as a check-box, perhaps have it as Yes / No radio buttons (that require being selected to finalize the submission). If Yes / No is not selected have a pop-up saying "Please select if this is a Pure Photo submission."

Check-boxes are easily overlooked, especially if they're not required for submission.
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dickon

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Good idea.

It makes sense for the photographer to have to 'assert' that the picture is (im)pure.
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Karen Zangian

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I think its not used because there seems not to be awards for this special box am I right?
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Debbie Forand

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I love the idea of pure photos, I think some of those that are on the top of the leadboards definately photoshop and not pure. I am one who does not photoshop much, just enough to sharpen, and take noise out. I really think that it takes away from the skills and eye of the photographer.
With that said, I do believe that defined terms of what pure in Pixoto's eyes are is what is needed. Then run a contest to make is visible that the option exists.
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dickon

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And maybe have a contest for just the Photoshopped images, too!

But definitely have a Pure 'filter' for each (sub)category so that we can ImageDuel with just the pure shots if we choose.
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Alexander Golev

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It is hard to define "pure" assuming how much editing is available "right in camera". I can produce a vivid HDR with almost any modern piece of equipment. Is it pure? No? What Canon preset is "pure": Natural, Portrait, Landscape,...?
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Darcie Allen Wright

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Read the thread I just put on here , maybe others are as confused about this as I am. I put a car photo on the transportation / automobile category and thought they had to be pure photos, which I submitted. I see a lot of them on there that are edited a lot. I thought all shots that are edited a lot had to be put in the digital section instead. I only have a point and shoot so I cannot edit in camera. So does this mean I could of edited my car photo more to make it better and I didn't cause I thought it had to be pure. Even more confused. :P
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Glenys Lilley

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Please keep the pure section for all of us that dont photoshop much.So many images are created in photoshop.
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kris pate

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Hi All.
Is there a way to have resubmitted pictures marked as pure??
Or is this for newly submitted pictures only??
Thanks.

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