Is image getting a fair amount of image duels?

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  • Updated 3 months ago
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  • (Edited)


See above.
https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...
Time: 23:00 Amsterdam time

From left to right
1st row
107 image duels, day 1st
67 image duels, day 3rd
105 image duels, day 2nd
101 image duels, day 4th
2nd row
94 image duels, day 7th
101 image duels, day 5th
98 image duels, day 10th
99 image duels, day 9th
3rd row
98 image duels, day 6th
98 image duels, day 8th
91 image duels, day 10%
86 image duels, day 20%

I followed the progress of my picture. Can you tell me why it received substantial less votes (67) where the average is aboutn 100 (soo 30% less image duels)?
This was the situation all day. And at the time when the badges were given situation was even worse.
NB. want to be clear that it's not about the rank!! it's about a fair number of image duels!!
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Ad Spruijt

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Posted 1 year ago

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SweetNana55

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Ad, I don't work for Pixoto, but I can tell you how it seems to work with my images. If an image is winning mostly all of its duels, it gets more duels. When it hits a patch of losing a few duels in a row, things slow down substantially. It will eventually get more duels, but more slowly, unless it hits a patch of several wins in a row. The images with the highest scores are dueling against images with much higher scores. If they win, they keep getting duels faster to see where they will rise to. If the image does not seem like it will end near the top, the duels slow down even if you are on the pro level. They will eventually get the 100 duels, but it may take a few days.
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Ad Spruijt

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Hi SweetNana55, thanks for your explanation.
What you describe is more or less the same that I've experienced for several years now, although Pixoto never was really transparant about how the voting works (resulting in a lot of confusion and a lot of questions in the community).
However this is not just one like that.
My picture won a lot of the image duels and that's why it reached the high score and 3rd place despite the low number of image duels.
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HI Ad, did you boost your image? Or just let is gain duels without boosting it? And if you did, for how much duels did you boost it?
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Ad Spruijt

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I've considered that Jasenka. But from experience I know that when boosting e.g. 10 more duels, it's very rare that you get the image duels all within a limited amount of time. If you boost during the day you may be happy if the image receives 5 or 8 out of the 10. So it might explain part of the difference, but definitely not huge diffence that's there now.
For Scott I've already added the suggestion to become (as Pixoto) fully transparant on the details of the voting system. These days transparancy is key for a lot of sectors, so I don't see why Pixoto keeps the real details of the voting system secret.
But thanks anyway.
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Hi Ad, I've checked and I can see that your image was submitted later during the evening that day (quarter to 9pm), and other images have been submitted during the morning, so they had at least 9 hours head start over your image.
In my experience that could result in such difference since highest peaks of votes usually comes around the time when daily awards are assigned (3pm) and since other images were online at that time and yours didn't they got more duels.

I hope this helps.
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Ad Spruijt

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Thanks Jasenka. I've thought about that one as well as I could imagine that that's the case. But I have my doubts. As you mention yourself highest peak votes are around the time awards are assigned. Pixoto also took care of timezone differences, that could lead to larges differences in submission times, by assigning awards a day later. As Pixoto claims a fair voting system: that would mean, even taking into account the input of Sweetnana55 above, somehow this results in a kind of fair/equal level of duels for pictures in the top 10 or top 20, I would say.

So please ask Scot (or others) for a transparent description of how the voting system works to be placed on the site. Perhaps that helps/clarifies but it will for sure save you a lot of time given the many questions/remarks regarding this subject in general.
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Ad Spruijt

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In addition, fyi: receiving more image duels when you reach high scores is still working as usual; I do see my picture and another picture with a low number of duels but high score catching more duels.
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Ad Spruijt

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Hi Jasenka,
the problem occurred again today.
I'm not gonna invest time again in writing down all scores, as currents scores are changed since daily awards were issued.
But some of the flower pictures for november 18th had again received a very low number of duels, when awards where issued. So no level playing field situation, because other images received much more duels. I followed one of my own pictures and it hardly received any duels during the day, despite the winners.
FYI: at least 2 other pictures received a high number of winners (something like 15 of 5 or something as well so no cause for pausing etc.) but could, like mine, never win due to lack of duels in comparison to other images (20-30% less duels)
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Hi Ad, I have asked about this and I'll let you know when I get a reply.
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Ad Spruijt

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Probably dropped on the plate of Scott I assume? 
I've just raised this with him as well throuhg one of the other tickets as other people seemed to indicate similar experiences.
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I suggest adding # of wins and # of losses and score to your analysis.
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Ad Spruijt

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I did that Scott, as I know that's a factor playing a rol. But the ranking basically give that information indirect as well.
That's why I basically added my last remark.
Some of the pictures (and not only mine) i was talking about had ratios of 15 wins vs 5 losses or better. So high number of wins didn't result in higher number of duels.

FYI, I reported it twice now, but have seen it happening at least 4 or 5 times last few months.
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Images are allocated duels based on an internal skill level and number of "quality" duels received.
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Ad Spruijt

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see above
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I must just be a bad photographer, then.  I don't get NEAR that many duels, and I boost it every time it runs low.  Anymore, I boost it one time and then it stops.  It has boosts remaining but that's as far as it goes.
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Ad Spruijt

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Scott, Jasenka, 
The problem occurred again. I have a clear case of this using my own images of yesterday (see picture, flower pictures).
The flowerpicture I added as 1st one, received again 25%-30% less image duels (only 34 duels now, but when POD badges were issued even less) despite the high %-age of winners in it's early series of duels. This is really contra the description of how image duels should work (as described by Pixoto).
At the same time the picture of the Lily (3rd flower posted; 50 duels now) received a high number of duels but was posted later and didn't have the high number of winners initially.
This is a clear case I think and should allow to analyse the problem.

Not receiving fair amounts of image duels, will stop even more people participating...
(as per Amsterdam time around 22:20)
(Edited)
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Ad Spruijt

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In addition there is a 2nd picture in top 10 with that low number of duels (https://www.pixoto.com/images-photography/flowers/single-flower/6208424175730688)

@Scott: I cannot see time that the image was submitted (the improvement I asked for), so I cannot judge if this one is really comparable to my case above.
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I was wondering the same thing.  I voted for 10 images to get some boosts.  Three days later, the same boosts remain and my photo hasn't had a single dual since then.It's kinda discouraging when your photo is #4 for the day and gets left out of the voting the rest of the week
 
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Ad Spruijt

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and worse: some of the pictures (regardless their sequence of scores) seem to receive extra duels
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Hi Ad, I see that you didn't boost your image. Other images were boosted so they received more duels (since they had higher score too). More duels doens't always mean your image will get higher score, score can be lower too if image loses duel.
Can you please try boosting image and see if that makes any difference?
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Hello Robin, can you please post link to image you are writing about so we can check?
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Ad Spruijt

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Hi Jasenka, see the trail above. This is the same suggestion as before but is for sure not the cause. Boosts (10 duels) often takes more than 24hrs to really get those 10 extra duels.But in this case none of my images did receive boosts and still I have a 34 vs 50 duels example which is is a wrong/unfair difference of about 35% less duels for the better scoring (from the start!) image. And even now (about 24 hours later) the number of duels increased a bit but the strange situation continues (1 good scoring picture hardly receiving duels). Basically the same remark Robin made by the way.
As you know images with a high %age of duel wins receive more duels.Especially when the picture starts with a lot of wins. That never changed.But now repeatedly the ImageScore (your proprietary algorithms!) seems to have bugs that pop up from time to time over the last year resulting in the effect above. I haven't seen any action from Pixoto to solve this besides trying to convince users that behavior is normal (which is comparible with the past definitely not).
But to help Pixoto analyse the bug/issue I boosted the bottom right image as you requested. Hopefully technical analysis is really done and followed up now.
Please note that the boosting also complicates the analyses for Scott. As additional votes (wins and losses) impact the behaviour of your ImageScore algorithms (as Pixoto always claimed in any description and here in the community). Also the fact that only one of the pictures receives an extra boost will not add to the comparison of the 2 pictures behavior in the past. Feel free to cancel the boost if you want or add a boost for one of the other pictures if that helps analyses. As I really hope this is fixed ASAP.
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Ad, I forwarded this to Scott to be checked. As soon as I get a reply I'll let you know.
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Ad Spruijt

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Thanks a lot Jasenka
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Ad Spruijt

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Jasenka. Is Scott unavailable? I don't see any reaction and I guess he's still the only one doing anything like this. The longer it takes before he starts analyses the harder it will be to find the root cause...
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it still has the same amount of votes and same boosts remaining as the day I wrote this post
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Robin, I forwarded this to Scott to be checked. As soon as I get a reply I'll let you know.
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Thanks
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John Larson

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I've got an image that's been on Pixoto for over 7 months and has received a grand total of 11 image duels.

https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

Another that's been on the site for OVER 2 YEARS that's gotten 19 image duels.

https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

My whole stack of photos have some that have received over 150 duels, and other photos submitted on the same day in the same category have less that 40 duels.

I've given up trying to figure out how or why an image takes off, and have resigned myself to being pleasantly surprised when one does.
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John, both images you linked are paused - meaning they will not get more duels unless you un-pause them (in special circumstances even pause dimages can get duels, but that is really rare).
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John Larson

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I understand they are currently paused, but I'm wondering how an image gets paused after only 11 duels in a category like Animals that's sure to have way more than 11 potential duel opponents.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but trying to figure out how voting (and potential for voting) on some images is extremely low while on others it's in the 20-30s in the image's first day.
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Ad Spruijt

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Hi John, returning to Pixoto ;-)   ?
Over the passed months I stressed in different ways that Pixoto (not Jasenka by the way) has to change mindset. Pixoto should simply improve communication and take feedback seriously instead of "defend Pixoto", explain users are wrong etc. Basically take users/customers and their feedback seriously finally.
Most of Pixoto team seem te have left. Scott stood up after loads of complaints and start handling issues (although he doesn't seem te be available always). Had some clashes with Scott about his communication as well as he hided feedback he didn't liked. But ... he promised not to do that anymore.
With regards to your remark "I've given up trying to figure out how or why an image takes off, and have resigned myself to being pleasantly surprised when one does.", I can only say that the ImageScore -  the pixoto proprietary algorithms for voting & duels are still a mistery. I've also asked Scott to bring this to to open and make it clear for the users but, besides some generic things ,he refused this.
The problem I noticed however seems to be a more recent introduced bug.
I'm sure it's a bug but again I have to repeat questions to analyse it, because basically Pixoto tried again to explain that it works correct and I was wrong.
This time I had the proof. Unfortunately Scott doesn't seem to be availble to do analyses, so I'm afraid losing time wil make it very hard for Scott again to solve this.
Regards, Ad
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If an image doesn't do well out of the gate, it gets paused.  Because of this the Pixoto algorithm doesn't guarantee low scored images are ranked appropriately.  Ranking is only effective on the higher ranked images.

In order to be efficient, it tries to weed out low quality images as quickly as possible. 

I apologize if I have stepped back from the community site, but you will get a fast response from me on the /v3/updates section of the site.   

Everything is progressing nicely, but there were a few unfortunate major hiccups along the way that affected user experience. These growing pains however are going to allow use to roll out new features much faster in the future as well as have a more reliable, faster responding system in the future.

The only issue right now with duels is there a lot of boosted images clogging up the system, but this would only slow down other boosted images.   We have a fix for this, but is not a high priority as everything will eventually balance out.

We are currently pushing to get an updated iPhone/iPad app into the App Store, then we will finish the remaining 5% of the image/contest migration and work to transition the duel system.
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Ad Spruijt

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Thanks Scott. Good to see your feedback and thanks for letting us know there is a place to receive quick feedback from your side.
I bookmarked https://www.pixoto.com/v3/updates before already as I'm really interested in noticing the updates. On that page there is not an option to raise new issues, does that mean that a reply on the latest update is probably OK?
With regards tot the proven bug that I reported above (were boosting was'nt the issue for sure but where a high scoring image wasn't paused but simply didn't receive the duels it should get according to ImageScore algorithm), do you want me to mention those on the other page as well?
Thanks
Ad
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Kelley Hurwitz Ahr

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if Ad was made an employee of Pixoto and allowed to implement his ideas as he sees fit, I would instantly renew my paid membership and daily picture submissions.
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Ad Spruijt

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Thanks for the compliment Kelly !
However my influence is about 0 (zero).

As far as I know Scott is the only member of the Pixoto team caring about the future of Pixoto.Other founders/owners etc have left the scene (for a several years already). Scott's main focus currently is technical for now as the product not only aged for years functionally but also technically. The old platform seams to cause a lot of technical challenges. Functional further development is more-or-less on hold as there is simple no-one to do that.
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Kelley Hurwitz Ahr

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In the past, I have referred about 20 people to Pixoto but they have all left because of the problems. None of them have bothered to keep up with this community board to see if things will improve (like I have). They likely represent most of the people who have left. I saw the membership decline numbers you posted before it was deleted. What they say in person matches what you write in this community board. You have a good read on what the site needs both functionally and you seem to understand the technical side too. That’s why I say in all seriousness that I would rejoin instantly if you did have influence. This message is for Scott to pay attention to your feedback because it’s what others are saying but don’t bother writing. I know Scott seems to care and is trying (and I have no understanding of the technical matters)...however, it would have been a great message to the members of the end of the year awards were done in February and March (are they even done yet?) to prove that things are different this year. So far, it seems that there are ‘bug fixes’ which leads to more bugs that need to be fixed. From my non technical eye, that’s what it seems.
.
(Edited)
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Ad Spruijt

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We share our disappointment. Communication has improved a bit thanks to Scott, but the way forward remains fuzzy. As long no one is really caring about (the business model & customer/member experience of) the way forward and proper customer/member communication, some technical issues are solved while the currently remaining customers/members will leave as well, I'm afraid.
Other sites like gurushots, youpic & viewbug are very active and way ahead of pixoto in the meantime...
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Just an update, because why not?

It's bene 5 days and that image of mine that I "unpaused" is still waiting for it's 3 imageduels. 11 recorded duels and not counting.

https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

Two images I uploaded yesterday, less than 17 hours ago, are already paused.

https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr... (17 duels)

https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr... (14 duels)

A photo in the Landscape category and below mine in the daily rankings with more duels (8W / 17L in 25 duels) and doesn't appear to be paused.
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John, images can get paused at 6 duels. Images that are un-paused (especially older images than currently submitted today - your image is from January and you un-paused it now) will less likely get more duels quickly - they will get more duels since you un-paused them, but they are not a priority. For such images, it is much better to resubmit them.
If the image is boosted it will not get paused until boosts run out (regardless of score).
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John Larson

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That seems like a low number of votes for the algorithm to be able to make a determination as to what's a good photo or not. Also, a photo getting paused in it's first day when votes are needed to get those coveted daily top-10 awards seems like nothing more than a way to: A) Reward people who sit and monitor their photos hourly and are able to B) spend credits to keep boosting or un-pausing their images.

And needing to resubmit in order to get more votes or until I get a result that I'm happy with seems to go against every single reason that a site like this exists. Not to mention will only bog down the system more than it already appears to be.
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John Larson

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No idea if this thread is even a priority any more, but the two images I posted on July 23rd and got paused during the 1st day voting are still not receiving duels. I unpaused them after posting about them and they still sit with 3 boost duels remaining, never to duel again.

There's another photo in the same category uploaded on the same day that's sitting at 18W / 27L and isn't paused. Either it never got paused, or the duel boost is working for them.
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John Larson

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Thanks for the response.

Although, I'm not quite sure how an image that's got 5 wins and 6 losses in it's 11 duels is considered a low quality image that should be paused and "weeded out" as you put it. That's barely enough sample size to know what the community thinks. It's barely enough duels to counteract the people not thoughtfully voting but simply "farming" for credits by quick clicking every left side image so they can get enough to submit their own photos.

Granted, it seems as though things are going through a change and hopefully it will be for the good of the community. Fingers are crossed.
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There are numerous factors involved. It depends on the order of the wins and losses as well as the quality of the image they are dueling against.

For example, an image that loses repeatedly against other low scoring images would get paused before an image that loses repeatedly agains high scoring images.
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Ad Spruijt

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Hi Scott

It's not clear for me anymore where/how this issue is followed up.
Posted a question here https://www.pixoto.com/v3/updates/4824011227529216, given you pointed out that you look there, but don't know if that's the right place at I don't see a response there.
The bug exists, that became obivious.
But please me know whether there will be a follow up or not. Will it be analysed/investigated as Jasenka indicated; else I might want to remove/resubmit one of the involved images.
thx
Ad
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Ad Spruijt

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Learned from Scott in the other thread mentioned above, that he will start looking into this.
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So to the answer the question "Is image getting a fair amount of image duels?"

I will say is, yes.

An image score stabilizes quickly and is based upon the images it competes against.  The dueling algorithm is complicated, but successful and correct. An image gets duels according to how it performs and based as well on the images it performs against.    It is also takes into account the quality of the person doing the voting aka the judge as well as the quality of the image it is dueling against. Images receive a scaled number of duels which is based on how they perform in the system.

A judge that votes well, has a higher impact on change due to a vote.  A judge that cheats has no impact on the movement of the image.  Similar scoring images have less impact on each other.

It is not reasonable to expect the images to stay in the same order AFTER a particular date because they duel against NEW images.  Your examples are time sensitive.  Peoples opinions change, cameras change, people seeing the same image over and over again prefer fresh content, new images are introduced and the images are now ranked *RELATIVE to the NEW IMAGES* that did not exist at the time they were uploaded.

I would not be concerned how your image scores again such a small subset images as much as I would be concerned with a much larger subset.

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Michael Moore

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How is the 'quality of the judge' arrived at?

Is there any way of knowing how we as individual members are 'rated' as judges (is it the rating given in community challenges?) ? - presumably 'quality of images' is derived from their image score.


Just wondering.
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I was referring to members.  Members are scored based on their voting behavior.  If you vote poorly. E.g. you choose an image that is obviously not better and not subject to personal opinion.
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This score is not available to the public.
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Michael Moore

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Thank you for responding Scott.

This topic could go on and on - I will however let matters rest and again thank you for your response.
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Ad Spruijt

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Hi Scott

With regards to you answer to the main questions of this topc ("Is image getting a fair amount of image duels?"), I completely don't understand your conclusion.
Based on the same arguments you gave (I recognize the explanations from earlier threads & pixoto descriptions), I would say exactly the opposite.

So, based on your own arguments, I would say the answer is No!

You say: 
"An image score stabilizes quickly and is based upon the images it competes against.  The dueling algorithm is complicated, but successful and correct. An image gets duels according to how it performs and based as well on the images it performs against. It is also takes into account the quality of the person doing the voting aka the judge as well as the quality of the image it is dueling against. Images receive a scaled number of duels which is based on how they perform in the system."
My reaction:
"If this is the case: the example picture performed very well from the start. Number of active participants in Pixoto is not that high these days, so on average there is not much difference in quality of judges for different duels"

You say:
"A judge that votes well, has a higher impact on change due to a vote.  A judge that cheats has no impact on the movement of the image.  Similar scoring images have less impact on each other."
My reaction:
"Number of active participants in Pixoto is not that high these days, so on average there is not much difference in quality of judges for different duels. Besides that, I don't know how you mark judges as 'cheaters', but it's hard to believe that voters that gave the example picture a 'win' were cheating as that's would not in their benifit at all. FYI: I was not voting at all'.

You say:
"It is not reasonable to expect the images to stay in the same order AFTER a particular date because they duel against NEW images.  Your examples are time sensitive.  Peoples opinions change, cameras change, people seeing the same image over and over again prefer fresh content, new images are introduced and the images are now ranked *RELATIVE to the NEW IMAGES* that did not exist at the time they were uploaded."
My reaction:
"You fully right. But this is not impacting the fact that a picture doesn't receive duels anymore after it got a series of winners. Actually it should lead to more duels.
And by the way I even indicated this up front. As I know this happens I strongly advised to do analysis ASAP after the report since situation changes continuously."


You say:
"I would not be concerned how your image scores again such a small subset images as much as I would be concerned with a much larger subset."
My Reaction:
"Exactly! But than the duel algorithm should work according to what you describe instead of doing the opposite sometimes"

Ad

ps. Again you say something like "The dueling algorithm is complicated, but successful and correct." and at the same time it's unclear to the members. As strongly suggested before, please start also being transparant about this duelling algorithm by describing it in detail on the Pixoto site.