Duplicates & He wins best photographer of the year?

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I am looking at this guy Jbern Eugenio's album and what do I see? Duplicates after duplicates after duplicates! Is he re-posting all his shots? Might very well be! What are the admins doing about this? Nothing i can see so far. And what is the end result? The guy is in the Best Photographer 2011 list and in 2012 still duplicating his shots or re-posting. You call this kind of person a photographer? My goodness..
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Kevin Chua

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Posted 8 years ago

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Mark Wills

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Being very new to Pixoto this is a whole new experience for me and from my early experiences of how the community and judging works it's easy to see this website really lifts a photographers motivation and does great things for it's members, it's hard not to really appreciate the majority of quality work published here and the vital feedback provided by its members.

But...

I don't like to stir the pot or alienate anyone for that matter but clearly much of what has been said above resonates with a strong following and much truth. Since i signed up I've enjoyed following the journey our photos take but it wasn't until actually browsing a little i looked at some of the top scoring photographers and i became rather shocked and to my disappointment "not surprised" they have so many points.

it's very evident that some, not all of the high scoring photographers DO NOT deserve many of the points or accolades they have acquired, I won't go into details because those above and many in forums before have already done that but It opened my eyes as to how writhe this website is of duplicates, mirrors and replicas which are validated and worst of all REWARDED as unique and original works.

As far as I am concerned you should only get one shot, not five with different filters or slightly adjusted angles or modifications. ONE SHOT... What competitions, galleries or exhibitions professional or amateur allow their entrants to provide multitudes of very similar shots for the judges or public to deliberate on? That defeats the purpose of the event, and I'm just talking about the entry phase, on Pixoto people are actually getting recognition and rewards for this very unfair behavior!

Not to alienate anyone in particular so I've taken screenshots instead of providing links but these are exactly what many members on Pixoto are clearly and fairly upset about, these photographers are indeed talented i give them that but sadly their actions bring two words to mind, greed and selfishness. I as do many hope Pixoto can find some resolution to this highly unfair and rewarded behavior.

Please play by the rules people, all four mirrors below total 500-600 points each and have most likely each received awards quadrupling the photographers total score. This is cheating the system and it's hard to see it any other way.


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Andrew Halpern

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Well said Mark. We the members have been complaining about this unfairness for a long time now. People will not change. Cheaters will always cheat and there are many of them out there. They rationalize that just because they flip the picture or move 3 feet to the left that it constitutes a "different" photo. I do not know if it is ignorance or just plain arrogance but it happens more and more. Until Pixoto comes up with a process by which to minimize or eliminate this issue it will always be there. And also the fact that nothing is being done to eliminate power clicker, you can actually click in one place for 10 shots or more and then move to the other picture and click for 10 shots or more without even looking is ridiculous. Suggestions that would help prevent this have been posted but as of this time none of those suggestions has been implemented. The only way I believe they have to stop the dups is members reporting the offending photos. It is sad indeed that no real progress has been made in this area.
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Michelle Meenawong

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yes Andrew and why would they be fair? it makes no sense to be fair. Have you seen the one I just posted? this guy makes me sick. 3-4 5% of the month for the same picture and for following months. And this is for sure not ignorance, it is arrogance. And they will never stop, they even get paid for cheating. how many cash prizes did these people get already. So what is the sense of playing a fair game? They are not proud of a good work, they are just after many awards and cash prizes. And with the voting is exactly the same. Instead of looking at the good pictures to maybe learn something is too tiring and boring for them. They think they are good, they earn so many "cheating" awards.
Btw, I hope you really enjoy your holiday
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ghislain vancampenhoudt

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I have given up hope that these overrated and overawarded portfolios will ever get cleaned. Since cheating seems the rule rather than exception (especially in the top range - otherwise they wouldn't have got so far) I cannot feel good at this site any more. Honesty and fair play are neglected, so how can one still believe in this fake 'competition' ? A very depressive situation for the 'bona fide' togs...
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Andrew Halpern

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Sigh. It is said. there used to be a saying that cheaters never prosper but that is no longer true. Just look at all the corrupt politicians. It seems nothing in this world is more important to people than money and power. Very sad indeed.
Any way.
I am back from my vacation and will be posting many photos to both facebook and Pixoto. I try not to get to discouraged when I see what pics I lose against. It is easy to tell when people power click. I do not understand at all why they don't do anything about it. Changing the category structure will only make the problems more difficult to find. sigh.....
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ghislain vancampenhoudt

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Yes, Andrew it probably will. As you said -and that is my biggest frustration- why don't they do anything about it ???
If you show many of the top players' leaderboard to an outsider their first reaction is that the pics are nearly all the same. That is certainly not the way to promote the site...
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Michelle Meenawong

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I really would like to know what the pixoto staff answer on this. How can they give these people so many awards. There MUST be a reason
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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We review every reported image but, as I said earlier, if the image was submitted prior to 6/1/2012 we will only delete true duplicates.
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Diana Calvario

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Pixoto staff is not even answering anymore over here ... I will leave this group in the next days, taking with me all my pics, they don't deserve more than that.
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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We answer - but we're also trying to handle all of the feedback we are given so sometimes it takes a while...
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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We hear your feedback here - and we are making changes (in addition to the new rules we put in place at the beginning of June). Including
1) seperating 2012 from 2011 in the player leaderboard
2) making the default view in the player leaderboard this week
3) changing the point allocation methodology for award images to reduce the benefit of submitting a lot of the same images.
4) creating a set of rules for repeat offenders.

In taking a quick look at the above these images were submitted before 6/1?
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Michelle Meenawong

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Jason, I can understand that you are very busy. You are maybe less than 10 people to handle how many members? 4000? 5000? But if you would start to delete all the cheaters, there will be many many less. Everybody is willing to help reporting but if the reporting takes more time than the fun, nobody will have time to take pictures or play the duels
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Mark Wills

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Just a quick suggestion, why not have some sort of 3 strike system. 3 strikes and culprits receive a significant penalty points deduction, 6 strikes and you get an account suspension warning from Pixoto, any more strikes after the warning results in a 3 month suspension of your account or permanent closure?

Is that not fair? Cheat in any other competition and you'll be barred from future applications and possibly even subdued to more permanent punishment such as having your reputation spread to other event holders, potential clients or employers. (not good for any photographer)

Clearly these people aren't going to stop while there's no real punishment for it, fair players will plead and rant until they're blue in the face. There is no doubt in my mind that until they actually realize there are significant repercussions for their actions they'll just keep offending and new offenders will try their luck. The current reporting for removal system only slows the offences, it does not eliminate it.
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Rafael Uy

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This looks good.
But pixoto needs to make the definitions of each category, sub-category very clear with links to a couple of examples. Like when I first joined all along I thought that manipulated photoshopped images was okay in the fine arts category. So obviously I would most likely choose that photo.

They should also provide links to photos of images which are not allowed. (variation of duplicates/similar photos) So there will be less confusion.

Also please define heavily photoshopped photos? Is this now allowed outside the photoshop category? Like adding/duplicating birds to the photo or using some brushes of grass etc?
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Derrick DeCorte

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The truth is Pixoto is online to make money not as a community service. They allow similar "Award Winning" photos because they sell them and make more money off of them. Although everyone likes to receive appreciation for their work, the truth is these awards mean nothing in real life. The money I receive in real life from gallery showings is real life. The cold hard truth is that these repeat offenders read the rules and regulations the same as all of us did and the fact that they choose to continue speaks volumes of their character regardless of their talent level. Pix is here to make money so they will continue to allow these things because they will continue to make money from them. Don't fool yourselves into believing that no matter how much you complain that it is going to make a difference. They are not going to remove their cash cows to please someone who is not making them money. It is not good business. Complain if it makes you feel better but do not believe it will change things. Money talks.
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Patrick Simon

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Dear members of Pixoto.
Why do you call an artist a cheater? It is rude and not good for our community.
I have been taking pictures for a long time and I am far to be as good as the people we call "cheaters". Then I asked myself why?
Just because they are pushing their art to the limit, because they can take thousands of shots of the same subject until they reach the best composition ever.
Same as a master cook, as a martial artist as a musician ... They repeat and repeat.
They never stop to practice, they never stop to learn and they are getting better and stronger all the time.
Is a musician a cheater? I don't think so.
Mr Eugenio, I personally think you are a greater artist than me and please! Continu to produce some great work, you are also a source of inspiration for others.
Dear member of pixoto, please stop to be greedy for awards or money and try to open your eyes and your heart.
We are a community of amateurs, we don't need to fight each others. We should learn from the work of Mr Eugenio and also be able of such a level of devotion in our art.
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Charlie

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Hi Patrick i am Charliemagne and i am thankful that you appreciated if not all but
maybe most of the photographers here in this very good and helpful site. I was once like you a newbie until a very good friend of mind introduced me to this site
and i joined. you know i've learned many things and improved a lot in my photography. Regarding the rules and regulations i just leave it to the admin. they know what is best that is why they called admin. about mid last year june or july i'm not sure, many of my photos were deleted due to similar images but i never reacted i just asked them why because i trust them in fact before they deleted some of my photos they send me notice into my email add.
i never reacted or overreacted if someone reported my photos or making fun of it, that's why i seldom join forum like this 'til you caught my attention 'coz i know you care that's from what a community do, not pulling you down when you are moving up. just leave it to the admin my friend.
you are right we joined here to learn from others who are better than us, enjoy, and to ask help and make friends with many photographers around the world.
my appeal to you is, if you have a problem asked the admin they are approachable i've experienced it.
One more thing, where are the good or very good photographers? They aren't here at the forum to bla bla bla unlike others. they're enjoying taking pictures for the next submission, but they're here when you need them why? it is a help and community my friend not a pulling down or fighting community. That's why don't be discouraged just enjoy and continue what you have started like the most of us. i hope i share a good point here my friend. Thanks!!!
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Patrick Simon

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Thank you Charliemagne
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gaiafrique

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Dear Patrick

JBern Eugenio is a good photographer - that is not in question. The fact remains that the rules (for submitting photographs for duels) are relatively clear:

"NO VERY SIMILAR IMAGES: You may submit an unlimited number of images but each one must be significantly different from the others. This means only one image of any subject and scene/pose combination is allowed (e.g. either b/w or color - not both). You may however delete an image and resubmit it at any time. If reported, and we agree that the images are not distinct enough, the newer image will be deleted. This is critical for keeping the Pixoto community vibrant, exciting and fun (note - this rule effective 6/1/2012)."

Further... although most of the "similar" and "duplicate" photos submitted by JBern (and some other players) were submitted prior to June 2012 - there have been others submitted since that date.

So, many players DO adhere to these rules - some do not. Some continually and/or frequently push the rules to the point where they break them, thereby IMO greedily removing awards from the photographers who DO adhere to the rules.

What would YOU suggest is a good/acceptable term for people / players who knowingly break the rules?
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Patrick Simon

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I would suggest you to read the rules one more time ...
No very similar images!
What about your #1 and #3???
Http://www.pixoto.com/gaiafrique
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gaiafrique

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Please refer to my comment below Patrick - answered there by accident...
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Patrick Simon

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Dear Madam, Dear Sir
I am totally agree with you about the fact that we have to follow the rules.
Personally, I use pixoto to evaluate my work and try to get better. I also like to watch at the work of others, and more importantly ....
Whatever I like or not, I do respect their work.
Pixoto is hobby for me, and I just feel sad of having another fellow photographer having some hard time, especially when his work is remarkable.
That's all I have to say.
Regards
Patrick
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Michael Ripley

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Read this part back to yourself: "Dear member of pixoto, please stop to be greedy for awards or money"

Who is being greedy for awards: the artist who consistently submits hundreds of images of the same subject based on a winning formula, or the rest of us?
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Patrick Simon

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Thank you Sir, your words are better than mine ...
(By the way ... I would like so much to find a winning formula ... may be one day, probably never)
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gaiafrique

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A winning formula is to take many photographs of LOTS of DIFFERENT things - not to submit hundreds of photographs of the same thing/s
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gaiafrique

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Dear Patrick

Many/most of us use Pixoto to provide feedback for our hobby/work/enjoyment. For me it is also a hobby - yet my enjoyment is greatly spoiled by those photographers who feel (for whatever reason or motivation) the need to regularly bend and/or break the rules so that they can repeatedly win awards.

You see, the problem comes when there are those players who submit many (large numbers) of similar photographs with the same subjects - for example a photogenic building (or a bridge, or a waterlily/lotus, or a drop of water falling into rainbow water, or a particularly striking (attractive) woman or child). They already know that the subject has won the public vote many times and will continue to win them awards.

These photographers might indeed be excellent photographers - but they (in my honest opinion) are greedy for awards - not for real, honest feedback. Once they have won a high award for a type of photo - they should ideally move on and look for (or create) other photo subjects and opportunities.

The players who stick to the rules, submit photographs of "new" subjects and approach "old" subjects and scenes in artistic and creative new ways - those are the folks who truly wish to see how their work is accepted/valued. Those who test new models/scenes/flowers/etc. and who are not afraid to "lose".

It makes me very sad too - that people who clearly are good photographers feel the need to keep submitting only (or mostly) similar photographs of subjects that they know will win them awards, instead of trying to look at new avenues to truly improve and practice their art.

Patrick, the artist you are defending is NOT having a hard time at all since he has, and is, winning lots of awards (many of them for similar or even duplicate photographs) - the folks who ARE having a tough time are those who stick to the rules and work hard to look at the world in new ways - yet continually get bumped off the top players' lists because folks (such as Jbern used to do) submit high numbers of similar photographs of the same subject/s on the same day or the same week.

Jbern is no longer submitting large numbers of photos of the mosque (which won him so many awards) or the same rose (etc., etc. etc.) simply because he has been told not to do so by Pixoto after repeated complaints by other players (look when this thread started).

There is also a great difference between photographs of relatively static objects (e.g. buildings, stationary cars, bridges, beaches, bought flowers in a studio set up) and photographs of objects which are largely mobile (e.g. animals, clouds, flowers and fungi in natural habitat, even water-drops). Photographers who take photographs of static objects need to beware of the likelihood of similar images and take responsibility for their own actions - they need to be mature in deciding how many are fair and how their multiple submissions might actually break the rules.

There is quite simply no excuse for breaking the rules - those who break the rules are cheating and need to be asked to change their ways.
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Patrick Simon

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To be honest with you, i was feeling the same when the "top" photographers started to join Pixoto. I was saying to myself: "it's not fair" some one should stop that and let us a chance to shine or at least to try.

Then i really take a look a what is Pixoto ?

We can say many things, and talk about it for days and days, but at the end, Pixoto is all about competition. It could have been a cuisine contest, a sport or musical championship, anything ... at the end, it ended up to be a photography contest and we love it that way.

If this guy is the best, then he should be able to continue again and again, until someone will be better than him.
This kind of photographer (and we all know that he's not the only one) is a specialist for this kind of picture. He did it so many times, he went so far into the details, that the only think i can say is :"Respect"
...
This kind of photographer helps me to understand my true skill level in my passion (quite low) ... but more importantly, it helps me to fight and try to be a better photographer.
...
This is all about competition and theses guys are "very good"
We should keep on practicing and try to improve to maybe one day get closer to them.
I don't think we should ask Pixoto administrators to help us in this fight, the only think we can do is to work and practice as much as they do.
...
At the end, we all know that all their shoots are genuine. I have to admit that they are sometime very similar, but i also know that they are all different ... they are playing with the edge of the rules ... that's right.
...
We want to compete in photography, so let's be creative, work hard and try to be better than them instead of complaining with the referee.
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gaiafrique

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Patrick - you get the 2012 Noddy Badge Award! Congratulations!

You have been the first person to notice - or at least to comment on - the fact that I DO have two similar images - distinctly and distinctively different - but nonetheless - similar. Submitted around four months apart - but nonetheless similar - same beetle, same flowers but two different photos, taken on a windy day, outdoors, in natural habitat with a beetle that did not enjoy being photographed (especially NOT with a point and shoot).

What you AREN'T however mentioning is the description from my #3 photo which was posted almost four months to the day after the first photo...

Allow me...

"A protest photo - submitted because of the players who submit multiple similar images to the flowers sub-category. Definitely a different photo from the similar photo which presently is "leading" image... the beetle shows that clearly (as does the exif info) but nonetheless far more "similar" than I prefer posting."

Would you like me to show you my other "protest photos" or would you like to wade through my pics trying to find them? To give you a head start - they are all posted around and about the same date - 15 Jan - and were posted because I had had enough of watching the cheaters posting many photos on the same day of the same flowers - at times duplicates - one simply a crop of the other.

Not one of my "protest" photos (or any of my other photos for that matter - unless I have somewhere made a mistake) are the same - none are duplicates - although the same flowers or insects are present in the protest pics as are present in some of the other photos posted some months before.

What my quiet little two or three day protest left me with was a feeling of deep boredom - and intense wonder that someone might intentionally wish to keep posting photos of the same thing over and over - simply in order to win awards????? Que?

So I went straight back to what I enjoy the most - taking photographs, learning, getting a kick out of the odd photo here and there getting boosted into the late 500s and even 600s. I would far rather that - than keep looking for, and submitting, the so-called winning (boring as hell) formula which is actually an empty bucket making a loud noise.

Patrick - your photography is very good - I aspire to being able to take action photos such as you do.

I do not have any gripe with you - your photos are diverse with very few even featuring the same subject. Keep that up and YOU will be the winning formula - far more important than submitting vast numbers of the same photos of the same subjects simply to win Pixoto awards.

Jbern is simply one of a number of award-winning photographers who do, or have, submitted numerous photos of the same thing, over and over and over, in order to win little badges and occasionally a few hundred dollars.

If you think my #1 and #3 are similar (LOL - and please don't forget your Noddy Badge Award) won't you take a quick look at these photographers - please!

here, here and here - oh as well as here and here (who has recently started "copy-catting" the "flower-in water" style of this player), etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum.

Winning awards in that way - no thank you! If it makes them happy that is wonderful, however in my opinion it is boring and quite frankly makes the voting REALLY DULL! And it remains against the Pixoto rules to post loads of similar pictures and definitely against the rules to post duplicates no matter how they are cropped or rotated...
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Patrick Simon

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If a photo is similar with another one, it is not important. We are all proud of our photo, that's the reason why we want to compete. You, me and most of the others we just try to show our best and to be as fair as possible.
Every time I submit one of my photo, i keep watching as much as i can, i follow the evolution, sometime with a happy smile, and most of the time with a sad face ...
Just a 20% award and it makes my day!
Of course I would like to be number one, to be on top of the leader board. That's why i keep on practice, learning and working as much as I can and it's the same for all of us for sure.
...
Very often i can read about many negative things ...
"Too much photoshop ... this picture is in the wrong category"
"This guy is cheating because he has so many similar shots"
We are all agree, that's right. That's what they do to win, and it's something that You, Me and others don't do ...
...
We don't do that, because we follow the rules, we would like to show that we are "multi skilled" in photography, and we want to show our work and be rewarded if deserved.
...
But we need them!
Without all theses fantastic pictures, what will be the value of the reward ?
How to find the motivation to get better and better photos ?
We should be proud of competing with such talented photographers.
that's my philosophy.
...
If I was as talented as they are, i will keep doing and doing until being able to make a living out of it.
When we take a look at the top player of 2012, we will notice a portrait photographer which is showing hundreds of photos of the same little girl.
It is a beautiful work and he's achieving almost the perfect portrait all the time.
...
Well, I hope he will be able to make a good living out of it. Perhaps it's already the case, may be not ... I am just part of the ones who recognize his work as an art and i do believe he deserves all his awards.
I have no disrespect for any fellow photographer and I really enjoy spending time watching at Your work and the work of the others.
...
Please, let's compete in a positive way with as much fair play as possible ...
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Andy Halpern

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Wow. Charliemagne you have brought a bright light to a dark place. your words are true and from the heart. You have provided a voice of reason in a sea of egos and persona. You should be a therapist or a mediator as I can tell you are a kind person with a good soul. I am glad you posted this.
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Darrell Raw

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Patrick Simon is Charliemagne?

Never mind, just found Charlie's post. Wow this is a long read :p 11 months worth!
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Michael Ripley

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So much cynicism...
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Diana Calvario

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I am getting tonns of emails becoause I subscribed to thsi feed last year ... and now you decide to fight over here again ... I stoped posting to pixoto, well I just posted 2 new images but I did not even went to see if they made it to the top and, honestly, I don't care anymore. If I can suggest something to ALL of you over here: GET A LIFE! ... hug your friends, go out, photograph what you like and be happy :-P
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Andrew Halpern

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You may want to click the option up top that says "unfollow". I am going to do that as I am getting sucked into this abyss of negativity.
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gaiafrique

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Dear Charliemagne, let me be one of the first to assure you that your photo quality cannot, or should not, be mocked.

Indeed, if anyone HAS mocked the quality of your photos they must look again. The topic under discussion here is not quality, but duplicate and similar images, submitted primarily to win awards.

Yes, negativity is rife, yes - the circumstances are problematic - unfortunately the Pixoto admin largely leaves the community to watch itself - so it becomes the community's responsibility to notice when folks are bending and/or breaking rules.

In an ideal situation - the individuals themselves will take the responsibility for ensuring that they do not submit copious quantities of photos of the same subject, etc.

Sadly the folks who are commenting on those breaking the rules are now becoming the target for anger from all quarters - a fairly classic "whistle-blower syndrome" - far easier to "nail" those who are trying to ensure that there is a level of fairness.

To state that the good photographers are not on the forum but rather are out there taking photos is an intriguing notion - one which I shall entertain for a long time.

Have fun folks. I guess this thread will continue for a long time - until it is closed down and another (or many more just like it) will take its place...
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Kevin Chua

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hi everyone,
as the one who started
this ruckus in the first place, I'm kind of glad there are a lot of like minded people out there around the world, but at the same time plenty of arrogant ones too. I haven't followed Pixoto for quite a while now, simply because of the disappointment I get from seeing duplicates and seeing the same images get to the top of the charts.
I'll just say this: how u won the award, by pure hard work and determination, or by pure laziness and just a few mouse clicks, make the kind of person u are to the rest of the world. The awards to mean something to many of us because we are starting out, venturing to semi pro, or even planning to go pro and would like to see some honest feedback. sending in duplicates or similar images simply destroy the whole idea of having awards in the first place. Even money and fame aside, I think people want honest feedback on how their images look so that they can improve.
I urge those who have not woken up from ur lazy slumber method of posting similar pics to take a good look at the overall picture and the whole essence of having Pixoto awards in the first place. I don't blame the admins for not being able to cut duplicates to an absolute zero.. it's impossible really. unless they have as many employees as maybe Apple, Google, Yahoo, etc, its virtually impossible for Jason to control this. with that said, it's up to the community to practice some ethics.
believe it or not, even the way each of us behaves in a photo community, translates to our characters in real life.

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