Duplicates & He wins best photographer of the year?

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This conversation has been merged. Please reference the main conversation: Reporting a Duplicate

I am looking at this guy Jbern Eugenio's album and what do I see? Duplicates after duplicates after duplicates! Is he re-posting all his shots? Might very well be! What are the admins doing about this? Nothing i can see so far. And what is the end result? The guy is in the Best Photographer 2011 list and in 2012 still duplicating his shots or re-posting. You call this kind of person a photographer? My goodness..
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Kevin Chua

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Posted 8 years ago

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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Kevin - I took a look at Jbern's portfolio and he does tend to upload a lot of images of the same subject matter but it wasn't obvious to me that there were any actual duplicates. Our policy is to remove images that are based on the same original file - but if a photographer takes a bunch of photos of the same subject there isn't a lot we can reasonably do about it. Your suggestions are welcome.
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Kevin Chua

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Hi Jason, thanks for your reply. File names can be easily changed and those images can be up loaded again and again and again without being detected. My suggestion is that in the Rules and Regulations that you have already, do state that shots of the same subject at different angles does not substantiate a unique submission. Especially if similarities are obvious. There are others who post shots of water droplets all the time and when closely examined, one might be able to tell that its the same setting, same background, likely taken at the same time. I always thought photography is about originality and creativity. Duplicates or people who take the same subject over and over again by adjusting the angles slightly does not show these traits. I am not certain how much screening is done over at Pixoto as there are so many pictures uploaded and I imagine there are not a whole lot of you out there to screen these all the time, but do try your best otherwise it might not inspire anyone to post their works. Another method that might work would be to issue notices from the admins to that photographer if the image is reported for something. Otherwise the photographer might just take it for granted that he or she can get away with it. The last time i brought this issue up i had quite a lot of replies from the community who also mentioned similar issues that they found as what I have described above. We as the community are not in the position to tell Pixoto exactly what to do or how to execute it or when to do it, but if there are changes seen, I am pretty sure everyone will show some kind of appreciation over time.
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bluetoothDrummer

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Dear Jason,

I fully agree with Kevin -- we had touched upon this issue multiple times in the past (see for example

http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...
http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to....

I think that we recognize that multiple of 'practically identical' photos is an issue. The fact that it is not as easy to monitor for such photos as is exact copies should not preclude Pixoto from having rules for excluding them. If rules exists then it becomes a shared responsibility for both us (the Pixoto players, the community as Kevin says) and Pixoto to act. We (the community) have a basis to report such photos to Pixoto, and Pixoto can take action based on these reports (from removing the photos for violating rules, to handling appeals, to asking us whether we believe this and that photos from player A are practically identical).

Would posting rules eliminate the submission of practically identical photos? Of course not. Would it be a move toward addressing the issue, absolutely yes.

And since we are on the topic. As suggested before, I am even against allowing a B&W and a color version of a photo. The photographer should decide which version of his/her photo is best and submit that one. We don't have to do his/her homework in selecting whether the B&W or the colored one is better. In other words, there should be a single Pixoto submission per "negative" (a digitally captured photo frame).
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You make good points - and we will consider them.
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bluetoothDrummer

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Note that a side effect of practically identical photos. Lots and lots of awards awarded to same person for the same practically photo. Because, if one of these practically identical photos deemed good, then I bet almost all of them will.

To put in other words, if a person submits 20 practically the same photos (say, pretty good ones) in a category, and there are 100 photos in total submitted in that category for the week, this photographer will win practically all the weekly awards, without contributing to the advancement of "high quality photography" much more more than the guy the submitted the 21 or 22 photo and did not get any award!!!
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Kevin Chua

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Hi Jason,

I just found some proof. Look at the Architecture & Design - Bridges and Suspended Structures. There are 2 exact same pictures posted by Jbern! And they are ranked at #4 and #10 when I'm looking at them. Does this make sense?

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

As I mentioned before, file names can be easily changed and manipulated. This is a perfect example.

Another example of a close duplicate attempt, not exact, but kills the idea of originality.

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Please do something about this. It's really killing the interest. I recommended an entire photography interest group of 700 members to join and post their work in Pixoto but when they see this the interest might just fade quickly.
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Diana Calvario

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Hi Jason, the first two links don't show any photogaphy ... those are 3D images from the computer ... pfffff ....
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Different exif data for each file. Definitely the same subject but different original images.
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Michael Ripley

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Jason, does this mean I can take a picture of a bridge, watch it do well, and then go back on different days to take similar pictures - in slightly different light conditions, or from a single degree of different angle - and that is ok?
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Michael Ripley

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În fact, Jason, your counter there is pure rubbish. The first two pictures in the link above we're taken on the same day, the focal length is different, which any fold can do with a zoom lens, or even switching prime lenses. Ne is shot in portrait and the other either landscape or cropped. The different shutter speeds are the same, only the aperture is different, which either means the photographer shot in shutter priority mode, or full auto, and the slight difference in conditions selected a different aperture.

For all intents and purposes here, these are the same pictures.
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Derrick DeCorte

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All you have to do is look at his account. Most of the pictures in his top images are all like 5 different places, Even my Roommate, who is not a photographer, pointed out the same photos that are just cropped differently.
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Diana Calvario

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Look at last week mobile photos: http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

John Rou twice n° 3 and 5 ... and he is cheating in other ways as well as far as i can see
Have a look at this topic I opened today http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...

Can anyone answer?
Thanks
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Same tree - different angle and exposure.
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pacquiao

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thanks Jason
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Diana Calvario

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And some more ower here! Ohhhh c'mon ... this is getting ridiculous!

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

is changing filters an rework a photo on the iphone allowed to create two separate images?
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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These are clearly duplicates. One will have to be deleted.
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Diana Calvario

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Please Jason the same artist is trying this again!!!

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Exactly the same image exists already where he won Place 1!!! He just changed filters!!! http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra... its is the second time he tries this! he is trying to make other images weak and then come in with new ones!!! Not fair!!!
:-(
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Jason Kiefer, Official Rep

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Thank you all for your feedback. I think what you are saying makes sense and I see why it would be more fun and interesting if people submitted entirely images of different subjects. That said there is a benefit to our members of being able to submit similar images of the same subject so that they can have all of you decide which one you like better. We will have to way these factors, as well as the effort involved in policing, and determine what our ongoing strategy will be.

That said - for now - submitting different images of the same subject (if based on two different original images) is allowed. Duplicates based on the same image are not allowed (except a single mono-tone version).
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Diana Calvario

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Please Jason the same artist is trying this again!!!

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Exactly the same image exists already where he won Place 1!!! He just changed filters!!!

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

its is the second time he tries this! he is trying to make other images weak and then come in with new ones!!! Not fair!!!
:-(
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bluetoothDrummer

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I will continue objecting on any form of multiple submissions that can be traced to the same original frame. It should not be the Pixoto's community job to "correct" a photographer's submissions (...you know this version of your photo is better than that version of your photo...). That should be the responsibility (and gamble) of the photographer to take his/her chances with what he/she believes is the best photo from the frame he/she shot.
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Kevin Chua

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another thing to note would be re-submitting of similar photos on different weeks. now I understand how this Jbern guy can get so many awards with seemingly less effort
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Jbern B. Eugenio

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Kevin Chua, Thanks for your comments, it means that there are people who discovered and appreciates my images and im happy for it.

Anyways photography is only my hobby and i want to share my images to all.

Duplication??

For your information all my images are original and if i'd really like the subject, i love to take a picture in different angles and compositions.

In my point of view, PHOTOGRAPHY is science and art of making/producing images in a FREE manner

Thanks and Have a nice day to all! :)
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Diana Calvario

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Being a good photographer means , for me at least, posting new and exciting shots to compete and NOT submitting the same kind of blabla all the time. We have this phenomenon in all categories over here ... it's not about good photography Mr. Jbern, its about WINNING!!!! And I wonder if people would matter in posting the same kind of image again and again if there was no money to win ...
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gaiafrique

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Regarding all images being original...

EXIF info helps to narrow things down a little - so compare these:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

and...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

Yes, they were submitted prior to the new regulations (as highlighted by the mysterious Lupert Ramos) - however when one makes a statement it is likely that someone will check...
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Kevin Chua

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Dear Jbern, I have nothing against your photos or how you take them or how many you take on your shoots. my concern and it's shared by others in the community, is the number of similar images u posted .
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Kevin Chua

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Dear Jbern, I have nothing against your photos or how you take them or how many you take on your shoots. my concern and it's shared by others in the community, is the number of similar images u posted .
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Gregorius Pratomoadji

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Michelle Meenawong

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they are a few "photographers" who play the same game again and again. Some are very nice, some nice and some are not really nice but they all have something in common: they win awards and after a while it's just boring and not fair
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Kevin Chua

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Hi Michelle, Gregorious and Diana,

I think all of us have made our point very clear to Jason at Pixoto. Let PIxoto decide what to do with such "photographers". I fully agree with each and every one of your points, and as for those duplicate pic posting people, i take it that they have less ethics than the rest.

I think photography itself is a free art form yes i agree. But when it comes to competitive photography no matter how serious the competition really is, there is always the consideration of fairness. We shoot what we like, as many as we like, and however we like. That is generally the way to go for all photographers new and seasoned. But when posting for the sake of critique, competition, or even just for friends' viewing, I strongly feel that taking the same subject at angles that do not make much of a difference to the overall impression, is more newbie-ish than pro.

Alot of us start out by taking hundreds of pictures of the same thing, most exact duplicates, some maybe a few degrees left or right, down or up. Then we post it all for the whole world to see. Viewers look through them and their thoughts are "same...same..same..zzzz.. same". Then we learn how to apply self critique and filter the best photos out of an entire day's shoot, and we post less in quantity, but more focused on quality. And when we finally mastered the basics, we post the "killer shot"; the one that says it all. That is how i think things here should be. I look back at the newbies that I am guiding sometimes and I see bits my past self while starting out in them. Aimless shooting, no thoughts on composition, rushing and not checking for sharpness, exposure, etc. Then i remind myself not to go back to those days.

That is how I think we all improve. I support stricter rules in the pictures posted here. If I am guilty of the same thing I would wish to be reminded and have no qualms about having the duplicate or wrong category picture removed.
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Kevin Chua

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Dear Jason and the rest of the Pixoto community,

Some people just don't learn. Zooming in and out, night and day, its the same composition. No originality.

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
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Jbern B. Eugenio

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Thanks Kevin Chua, you love to watch my work:

Try This:
http://www.pixoto.com/tattooedaldrich
http://www.pixoto.com/marco52
http://www.pixoto.com/heiwe
http://www.pixoto.com/ikshvaku
http://www.pixoto.com/edwinloyola
http://www.pixoto.com/borisfrkovic
ETC...

They are Good artist isn't it?
I love their work a lot, Hope you too.

Have a nice day to all.
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Jbern B. Eugenio

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Next week i will upload more another subject, i hope you will like it too :)
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Jbern B. Eugenio

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Kevin Chua this is for your information, Good day to all :)
http://www.pixoto.com/photography-com...
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Kevin Chua

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Yes Jbern I believe this is what I am looking for.

"NO DUPLICATES: You may submit an unlimited number of images but each one may only be submitted once. You may however delete an image and resubmit it at any time. If reported, the newer duplicate image will be deleted. There is one exception: you may have one monotone version of an image and one color version for a maximum of two."

Anyway I have already said my piece and the rest of the community has expressed their concerns. Let Pixoto decide what they want to do and how they want to run this competition.

I looked at your pictures and I can tell you're really deep into architecture since you're from a civil engineering background. I got nothing bad to say about the quality of your pictures really. Edwin is the type that I look up to in photography. Original works. Creativity.

Leave it to Jason to decide how this is all going to be settled and we just concentrate on photography itself.
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Jbern B. Eugenio

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Thanks kevin, i hope i can see your work too... Enjoy and Have a nice day :)
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Tigi Borg

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I will post this one on a three different threads, just to get chance that it GETS NOTICED from PIXOTO EXCECS!!

Following two images are DUPLICATES, both hefty awarded, and it is against the rules of Pixoto.

1. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
and
2. http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

One image can be considered as "original", while the other is "copy", placed in the other category.

Since Pixoto allows only one b/w "offspring" of the original image, then it is clear that the second one cannot be neither allowed in contest, nor awarded!

I am not sure that these are the only such "tricky jobs" from the author. But let Pixoto Execs do some examining, and... if I am correct, deleting image(s), as well as their awards!!
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BauKim

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I can understand the argument of allowing people to post different takes on one subject to compare results (I don't like it, I don't think that should be what this site is about in my opinion).
BUT you cannot use that argument for pictures posted weeks or even months apart, after the first one has won an award. Then it's very clearly a case of someone who knows a certain image did well and going for an extra award and extra points. If you really want to know which picture of the same subject is better it would be a lot more logical to post them at the same time, not months apart...
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bluetoothDrummer

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Dear Tigi, good catch. Note that these photos are not duplicates in the strict sense. I've placed the two photos next to each other and while the water (waves and splash) are exactly the same and the jumping boy is exactly the same, the boy is not in the same exactly position in both photos! My conclusion is that these are "fabricated" composite photos (or at least one is), and even though they are good photos, the only category that they could both qualified for (if any) would have been photoshop art.

Overall my take about duplicates is harsher than the current rules in that when copies (or almost copies) are submitted, it its the submitter that is in violation and not the photo itself. It is the act of the submitter that needs to be punished and all the pertinent photos/awards need to be removed. But that's just one man's opinion on this.

I understand that Pixoto cannot manage each and every submission (in some sense, this is left to us). However, Pixoto should probably take a closer look at all the photographers in the highest tier (say over 100-200 awards). In principle these are the photographers (and their photos) that many others will look up to. There should not be any issue of impropriety with any of us, and even more so with those at the top.
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ghislain vancampenhoudt

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I would like to add the following : It is amazing how some players (even at the top) gather their awards.
Mostly a very beautiful image is submitted several times with a different crop or is 'photoshopped' with another background or other pasted items...These 'allowed' entries are most likely to be found in Landscape and Nature : one of the most heavy categories as to collect the maximum of points based on one basic shot.
Bluetoothdrummer is IMO absolutely to the point in his statements. These doubtful practices are not good for the credibility of the site and I am sure most of us would like to see them banned.
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Gregorius Pratomoadji

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3cib

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This problem could be solved by implementing services from http://www.tineye.com
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pacquiao

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the photographer in question really understood what was the previous rule for duplicates. He was right when he said his pictures were shot differently and not duplicates or having the same exif info. the reason why his pictures were not deleted because his submissions were not against the rules then.

unfortunately this photographer http://www.pixoto.com/jberneugenio/re... (no offense meant) might have not understood the current duplicate rule. In any instance that two photos have a big similarities, not considering their unique exif files, is considered duplicate already. as of this month he has a lot of very similar images submitted.

this rule is very clear
NO VERY SIMILAR IMAGES: You may submit an unlimited number of images but each one must be significantly different from the others. This means only one image of any subject and scene/pose combination is allowed (e.g. either b/w or color - not both). You may however delete an image and resubmit it at any time. If reported, and we agree that the images are not distinct enough, the newer image will be deleted.

again SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT...

pls enlighten me more with the new rule. if they are still considered unique from each other, then I will regret deleting my OWN images (with points and awards) which I consider duplicates myself. I believe I followed in accord to the new rule that took effect on June 1
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Andrew Halpern

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Im afraid as much as I like jbern I have to agree with Jay. Any photo you have to look at and study to see what the differences are according to the new rules duplicates.
Please look at the following photos and judge for yourselves. No offense intended jbern. These were all uploaded after the new rule started june 1st.
This really is not fair to those of us that follow the rules. If after looking at these you feel they are dups then please report them or better yet please remove them yourself as many of us already have done so to our own profiles. Thank you and I hope this has not upset you as I am only trying to be fair.

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...
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Jbern B. Eugenio

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I was so hurt about this... i don't want to say something against... just to hurt others... and If it brings joy to others... its OK...
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Andrew Halpern

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I am sooo sorry jbern. Hurting anyone is the last thing I want to do. No one does this just to hurt someone. At least not me. You are a great photographer but it is not fair that one person should be able to upload such similar photos but others can not. We must all follow the rules of the site. It is nothing personal. If you just follow the rule guideline below I am sure this will not happen to you again.
Once again I like you and am trying to help you not hurt you.

"each one must be significantly different from the others. This means only one image of any subject and scene/pose combination is allowed"

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