Duels seem to cater against the Nude and Boudoir contributors.

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in over 5000 dules I've only been able to vote against maybe 20 Nude and Boudoir. Most images are lucky to get maybe 10-15 duels in two weeks. How is that fair to contributors who support this genre. I can see the same purple flower 2000 times in 3000 duels and the same spider over and over. Please add duels fairly across the board. If others don't want to see nudes, they can turn them off. Its sad you stifel this category to protect others from seeing it. Why have it if you shorten our duels to make room for purple and pink flowers. It's pointless to even put photos here if they don't get enough votes to compete with voting years ago when this category could get hundreds of duels in a week not 10 or 12 in two weeks like now. I just finished 100 duels in a YEAR since I added them to an image. Pathetic.
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Brian Sadowski

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  • disappointed.

Posted 5 months ago

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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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Hi Brian, 

We don't do anything to prevent that category from receiving duels other than if someone has mature content disabled. The majority of users have mature content disabled.

Participation went down when we removed the cover image and hid images altogether.We can go back and add the cover back in the category so people can realize to turn mature content on and see if this helps.
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Brian Sadowski

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I don't believe that. I have mine turned on. I did two tests. I went thru 6000 duels and saw 20-25 nude and boudoir duels. Last night after I sent this message I did 1000 duels and only 6 duels came up in all that time. You are stifling duels. How is it in 1000 duels last night only 6 duels have the genre i post in. It's not about mature being turned off. My test with my Mature ON! proves that is false. I didn't participate for over a year because of this and it's worse than ever. Images I added two weeks have only been in 12 duels in over two week. Photos where I added 100 duel boots over a year ago still have 70 duels to go. Maybe you are not hiding the Nude and Boudoir duels directly, buts it very clear that they are rarely showing up in dudels and something is wrong that you are not knowing or admitting too.

I also never rarely see the daily uploads in competition either. I checked out another guys profile who posted in Portraits of Women on Oct 9th and they have had over 225 duels. Something is wrong. I see the same black and white guy over and over with an umbrella. Please re look into your dueling system. Do your own test and run thru duels with the matur option on. Is there a time where they are on, a time where they are slowed down or sped up. You have something in an algorithm or setting and each time i'm on its rare to see the duels evenly run.

My Test last night.
1-124 duels 1 N/B (nude boudoir)
125-350 1 N/B
351-370 1 N/B
370-387 1N/B
388-411 1 N/B
412-619 1 N/B
620-1131 0 Nude/Boudoir duels.

1131 duels and I saw my category 6 times. Id say something is wrong.

The numbers do not lie. 6 duels in my category and zero that came up were from the day posted. Many were repeats and I skipped over them. The same lady in blue that I seen a dozen times, I skip over. The system is totally broken. You say you haven't slowed down the Nude/Boudoir category. I think you might want to look into it. Other friend of mine who used the platform also quit using it. Going pro just to boots duels is a horrible option and I see it does not help other either. I look at the pro users and see no difference. your system decided if ifs going to be good in the duels and pauses items based on faulty algorithms. Two, maybe three years ago. We could post an image and have a image value at 500-600 in a few hours. Now it takes weeks to days if they even get enough duels to add up. Even if the majority have the mature option disabled it doesnt change the fack mine is on and I saw very little to duel or vote on. Please look into this deeper. I used to love this site and had genuine feedback from users and now its a damn ghost town. 2500 or more purple and pink flowers. How about letting me turn off that feature. How many ways can you take a photo of a flower. Not many have been creative in making them exciting to see. I love flowers and landscapes, but that's not my category and if my category is only shown 6-10 times in a 1000 duels,. It is not worth it to be here anymore.
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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Hi Brian,

Thanks for your research.  I will look into it deeper.
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Brian Sadowski

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Thank you.
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Lena Jocelyn Lawrence Arkell

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Perhaps it's because there are far more of non-mature photos than there are of mature photos. I for one, have mine turned off. Even then, I do get nude photos when the contributor doesn't bother to tag them as mature.
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Brian Sadowski

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Im still auto logged out of mature after uploading to my category. So far its not so good. Ill see how the duels go.
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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Thanks for the update Brian. I think that is happening because of a different issue altogether than what was fixed.  We will get working on that right away.
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Brian Sadowski

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Im going to take another break from this site. After about 1100 duels during the day today. I only had a handful of duels in my category. At first I had a bunch in a row, after that nothing. The Images that are in the Nude/Boudoir section only had about 2 to 3 dules urring the entire day. Thats terrible. Now way to climb or compete. And the one guy Fernando posts the same pic over and over in the chances no one else will post and its only for awards for this guy. All week long he posts the same pics if they lose. Its a joke. The fun has really been sucked out of this site.
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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You can't get an award if you are the only photo and your images can't vote against themselves. I appreciate your concerns and we will get this remedied for you. You are not being ignored.
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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We just did a release. Auto logging out of Mature is fixed.
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Brian Sadowski

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This is not a solved problem as the banner above suggests.
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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Sorry Brian,
Jasenka must have marked this as solved by mistake. We will get this resolved (Monday at the latest).
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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Hi Brian, 

Checking in.   Things have seemed to have improved.  Would you agree?
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Brian Sadowski

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No these zero improvement. Please fix it. No excuse, just be honest and tell us its rigged to slow down the NB category. Ill be happy to go elsewhere, Im tired of duelsing for hours without casting votes in my category.

Stop wasting our time and resolve it, tell the truth or let us know that being here is no longer worth of out valuable time. We cant sell our pics anymore so thats opening the door to leave quickly.
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Brian Sadowski

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No things have not improved at all. Why is it i can see 30 Mushrooms and dozens of birds but it still takes 100 plus dules to participate in my category. It's obvious the duels are somehow being slowed.  If I put 100 duel boots on my image it can take over a week to dule thru them. That's not right, they are in an algorithm to be slowed. it was never like this. I stayed away for a while to see if things would change, and they haven't. And now we can't sell mature photos in the market anymore? Seriously why are we even here? I'm better off going back to 500 pix. At least there we can sell things in out category. Someone made changes to disrupt us here. Its plain to see. Things were so much better years ago. Theres no way to compete if our images rarely make it into duels. 
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Mino Taurus007

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Hi Brian, hi Scott,

I did some testing as of 15.01.2020 ~21:00 UTC (mature on):

1 Nude/Boudoir (NB) in 323 duels, then
1 NB : 161
1 NB : 50
1 NB : 28
1 NB : 14
1 NB : 13
1 NB : 86
1 NB : 32
------------
8 NB / 717 duels = 1,1%;

This looks ok for me since Nudes and Boudoir is certainly not the main category here. Pixoto could easily validate this by calculating the entries for NB in relation to all entries.

Kind regards,
-Mino
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Brian Sadowski

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I did 1500 duels the other day and I never saw the images from the last few days in ANY of the duels I posted an image on the 10th and selected 100 duel boots, here we are on the 15th and it's only used about 65 dules. But i've seen the same pink flower 30 times, and the same portraits over and over. I've loving named the black and white cat i've seen a few dozen times, Spot. There is a problem here There so way to grow or compete when images are so slow.

I've tested this multiple times and drafted out where it was over 350 duels in between showings in my category. It's no longer enjoyable to see the same pink flower over and over.

Everything in this site is just dropping to garbage. And you the the same Fernando guy who just wants awards and reposts day after day till he wins because someone else beat his photo which means his duels affect the duels day after day. Its become a joke.

1.1 % of duels shows Pixot is either lying when they say they are not slowing down the duels or something else. Years ago you could get 100 duels of your images in a DAY. Now its takes weeks to go thru 100 duels. Fix the issue. Guys.
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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Hi Brian,

Taking a look at last week
https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

The submission rate for the category appears to only had ~31 images for the week.
Your image that is in first place has 72 votes which is a decent number of votes considering there are only 31 images it is competing against for the week.

December most images have 100 votes which is enough votes to accurately rank the category for the month. The images that do not have 100 votes are paused and not receiving any more votes. You can notice this whenever you see a "Get More Votes" option on the image detail page.
https://www.pixoto.com/images-photogr...

We pulled the N&B category from the market due to lack of model releases attached to the photos. We also pulled the People and Babies & Children categoruies and made them editorial only if no model release was associated.

If you have model releases associated with your photos, I don't have a problem monetizing them again.

If you want to spur up the category again, perhaps you can come up with an idea for a contest and we can do an email campaign to previous contributors.

I am open to suggestions Brian, but I think as Mino pointed out N&B represents a small percentage of overall submissions so you would not expect to see anything more than that in the proportion of duels.

I am sure the aggressive filtering we added along with the original bugs that existed when you created didn't this ticket didn't help, but those things are fixed now. I think another possible issue is the hiding of the content if mature content is not enabled. This is probably confusing to some people. I will add the thumbnail cover back to the category so it won't show empty of content and I will add back monetization if a model release is attached this week.

At that point, if you want to create a contest we can move forward with promoting the category and generating more votes.

Thoughts?
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Kelley Hurwitz Ahr

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I shoot a lot of boudoir and will enter a contest if you start one
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Scott Murphy, Official Rep

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No problem. We appreciate your patience Brian. We worked really hard last year to future proof Pixoto, resolve a lot of bugs, and migrate to an entire new infrastructure. We really want to address all of your concerns in the best way possible.

Unfortunately, we have not had the available resources until now because the focus has been on the migration. Our goal and focus for 2020 is photographer satisfaction and we plan on addressing all the needs of our users as quickly and efficiently as possible
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Mino Taurus007

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Hi Brian, hi Scott,

while I don't see the flaw in pixoto's system as Brian does I always wondered why it takes so many duels to get a reliable rating!

My private selection algorithm at home is based on Mark Glickmans' modification of the ELO rating scale. Given that a picture theoretically has an "exact" (constant) rating, which does not change over time like e.g. the playing strength of a (chess) player, Mark showed me that the algorithm is much easier to calculate. In my own rating system I get very reasonable ratings after about 15 duels. Not 100!

I am convinced that you can speed up your rating algorithm if you really want to. May be you don't want to publish your algorithm but here is what I do:

1. Give a new image (0 duels) an initial rating equal to the average (Elo system 0-3000 => 1500)
2. Pair a new image (0-9 duels) against an image with an established (>25 duels) rating.
3. Always pair an image against an opponent who is ~100 Elo points better OR worse (i.e. winning probability 64% for the image with the better rating).
This way it is much easier to decide on the better one for the user! And: a really strong image rises much faster!

After only 5-10 duels you get an idea of the image quality. After 20-25 duels you get a satisfying ranking. I am sure not only Brian would really love this. :-)

Regards,
-Mino


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Brian Sadowski

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Hi Mino I like to compete against the current submissions and I enjoy the duels. I never, I repeat that, I never see the submission of the week in my duels. Im casting my duel vote on pics from last year or further back. Again, today I ran thru over 1000 duels and I only saw three N&B duels. I put 100 on my duels because its what ive always done. Its awful that it takes a week to a month to post my current image in the duels and it takes weeks to show it 100 times. It cant take two weeks to duel 50 times. My mast photo duels 14 times in 24 hrs. There was a time when if we wanted to compete we needed to duel for 100 or more. But now it takes way to long to cycle thru them and everyone else is using 100 duels, so If I only use 25, they have 75 more duels to affect the ranking. I have to choose 100 to stay with the others. It's not about winning either, it's about actually seeing the category i am participating in. I still believe its slowed down for whatever reasons they're not admitting too. And another thing is another photographer can actually beat you in the duel by negative votes. I saw that yesterday too when I had 1 duel and 1 win. But another guy who posts the same pics day after day who is only after awards was 200 point higher than me by losing 7 times. Losing duels should never in any way beat a photo with wins. Im not sure who put that algorithm into place. Im competing in a market where other pics can rank in the mid 700's to 800's. I cannot get there if my images take weeks to go thru 100 dules when the top of the top has duels several hundred times. Id like a first place pic of the year. We all would, but its never going to happen when there's not enough duels of my images to obtain those rankings. Id like to see the N&B duels come up as often as the other categories. I see dozens of images repeated over and over during my 1000 duels in one sitting, but I never see the same N&B images compete except for the horrible ones and selfie quality images. The was a time i participated everyday. Lets make it worth my time at the computer. I want to play along not just let things ride. Im don't think Pixot will address it at all. I think they just want me to be satisfied with it, but i'm not. When Im active im posting more pics than others and I know my pics are dueling against my own pics by seeing the wins and losses. How is that even happening. My name entries should never compete against each other. And I know i've voted on other duels where both pics were from the same user. That's a whole different problem that deeply affects the results.
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Mino Taurus007

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Hi Brian,

you compete against the current submissions not only when they are paired against each other but also indirectly. 

When new images are paired with each other, you will not get a reliable ranking. It is better to pair a new image against an established one. 

I did another voting today having 5 Nudes & Boudoir out of 100. Most of them had an image submitted this week. 

I agree that in Pixoto you need about 60-100 votes to get a reliable ranking for any given image. In my experience with ELO type rankings Pixoto can improve on that. 

Maybe Pixoto does not want to speed up the process because there might be room for manipulation then (e.g. having more accounts just for voting down the competition). However this could easily be mitigated just by silently reducing the voting impact of a user who gives manipulating votes. 

You can get the "image of the year" even when you submit your art at the end of the year because Pixoto always gives those late submissions time to rise and presents the results much later.

We all would, but its never going to happen when there's not enough duels of my images to obtain those rankings.
In my experience with pixoto this is not a problem. Whenever you have a really strong image it will rapidly accumulate votes. If the image is mediocre it takes ages. But I think that's ok.

BTW: 50% of the top 12 NB-submissions this week as of 18.01.2020 - 07:23 UTC are from you, Brian. The best (Necklace&Shadows) having 73 votes in just 5 days after upload. Just relax. ;-)

Peace,
-Mino
 

(Edited)