A separate category for B&W-Street& Candid..

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Provide a totally separate paradigm for B&W- Street & Candid. it is a "genre" of photography and should never be lumped into a generic B&W category... showing against studio portraits, sports photos, nudes...etc. Please consider this as many of us are losing interest in Pixoto based on this singular issue..

If there are questions regarding Street and Candid being a stand alone paradigm, please refer to Henri Cartier-Bresson, Vivian Maier, Joel Meyerowitz.. etc. etc. Photography in the street, on the battlefields, in the cities, is the father of modern photojournalism...

It is not about the duels, it is about the art....

Alan Roseman.
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Alan Roseman

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Shooting America

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Agee! Judging black and white candids require a different eye. The photos in this category are raw, many times grungy and appeal more to the emotions. They have no chance against studio black and white shots of models.
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Jasenka, Official Rep

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Thank you for suggestion Alan.
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Alan Roseman

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Jasenka.. As you are aware I've suggested this in the past... The request was denied.

I have no desire for a drawn out debate, a visit to nearly any museum will provide understanding for those inexperienced in this type of photography.

I believe the request is simple, to the point, and with merit based on a world wide interest in street photography.

I enjoy all photography, but I would not expect a exhibit of landscape photography to include portraiture, or vice versa. They are simply not the same... though both may be color.. So it is with B&W....

This topic has been, and is being, discussed by several of the regular Pixoto contributors, but not on the community board which has become quite acrimonious..

Hope you folks will change your mind...

It's not about the scores and duels... it's about the art...

Alan
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mlast11

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Please make this happen Pixoto. There are some really great Street shots on this site that will never get the recognition they deserve here because of the other categories they duel against. It really is a shame as Street Photography is quite popular worldwide and in my opinion is enjoying a bit of a revival, especially on social media.
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lou.plummer

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I concur with Alan. There are entire online communities devoted to street photography. Flickr has street photography groups with millions of images. Facebook has very active street photography groups. There are podcasts, magazine columns, books and exhibitions in museums devoted to to the genre. Heck, there was a even a film nominated for an academy award this year about a street photographer.

I understand about the difficulty of moderation. I do. But you have difficult moderation chores in Landscape, Nature Up Close and Digital Art. Earning page views is hard on a network with a trillion pages.

Plese give me a reason to become active on Pixoto again.

Lou
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Alan Roseman

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Thanks for sharing Lou.... I too hope for a reason to continue here.
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mlast11

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Good point on being more active here. As I take more street shots I find that I have less shots I'm excited about sharing on Pixoto. Not worth the effort. I find myself posting them elsewhere. If the genre gets some recognition here than I'll be a lot more active than I have been. I've taken all the shots I can of my dog and I'm bored of that. Don't tell my dog but I'd rather be sharing my street shots.
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Carol Plummer

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I am another vote for a street photography category. It requires its own category because it is a unique form of photography. I believe if you make a separate category for street photography, you will get a lot more participation in that area.
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John Phielix

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I second Alan. Street photography is an art totally reliant on itself. It requires not only a knowledge of light but also a feeling of a "moment in time". It can be a category true to the moment who many a person misses in life but can find back in that "capture".

We all know the perfect animal shot, the model, the nude, the happy child... but street gives us a window of life. How things are as is. It opens a window to ourselves as human beings. Our right and wrongs. Street photography is a mirror.

If Pixoto would give street photography a chance as a separate category they might contribute to a peaceful human development.
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Alan Roseman

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This is so beautifully and perfectly said John.... beautiful.. truly.

Thank you for taking the time to support this wonderful genre...
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Tavi Ionescu

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Definitely Pixoto community need a street photography section!
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Alan Roseman

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Thanks Tavi!
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Dragana Jankovic

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I also think that the Street photography should be treated in a different way as it is now. Very often I feel confused when I have to choose between mixed b & w genres. It would be nice to change something concerning the status of Street photography as this genre has more and more fans every day.
Thank you for considering.

Dragana Jankovic
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Alan Roseman

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Jasenka...

Is Pixoto looking for something positive amid all of the complaints about scoring, and duplicates, and alleged cheating?

Here's a great chance... it's all positive. Let's recognize street photography for the specialty that it is...

Alan
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Joyce Andersen

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I have to wonder if the reason Pixoto has not bothered with Street photography is because there would be few sales in stock or as canvas..... most people would not imagine street photography as being very commercial. and by it's nature is editorial only because who can trace down all the subjects and get model releases? As such, there is little reason for Pixoto to invest in something that would have small returns.
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Mikki W

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I'm with the others here. Pixoto is a great idea, but one of the first things that struck me as I sat through duel after duel is that comparing two photos in the same category, but different subcategories, often seemed plain wrong and undermined the validity of the scoring system. For some subcategories it isn't an issue - I'd be pretty confident about judging a cat portrait against a cat playing, but for others, such as 'people', the category is far too broad. Let's face it, 9 times out of 10 the portrait of the pretty girl is going to beat anything in group/corporate, and that discourages people from submitting to the latter.

And B&W is the category that suffers the most, because it contains the entire world of subjects and styles. It makes absolutely no sense to compare street photography against carefully set up, studio and photoshopped images.

So break it out, or bring an end to the subcategory duels, in B&W if nowhere else.
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Lenore

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We've only had the B&W category for less than two years. And what happened after it was created? All the photographers of the images capturing all the attention -- the pretty girls, the animals, etc -- merely started converting their images to b/w and started cleaning up in the new category as well.

I honestly don't see Pixoto pulling a subcategory out of B/W to make it a new category -- not any time soon. I'm sure they feel that between the Cities category and the People category, plus the B/W category, there are plenty of spots to put street photos.

Don't get me wrong -- I am a huge fan of street photography. But given all the other issues, I don't know where this would fit on Pixoto's priority list (which must be huge).

Personally, I'd like to see Pixoto start with changing their duplicate rule back to the way it was, which was that a black-and-white image and a colour image were considered duplicates. If that policy was reinstated, I think it would make the B/W category a more artistic and pleasing category.

Just my two cents :-)
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Dragana Jankovic

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I also think that the Street photography should be treated in a different way as it is now. Very often I feel confused when I have to choose between mixed b & w genres. It would be nice to change something concerning the status of Street photography as this genre has more and more fans every day.
Thank you for considering.

Dragana Jankovic
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id bloggerbuzz

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Thank you for suggestion Alan.I think..street photography is honest shoot (in my opinion)
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Annette Nordlinder

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I so agree with you Alan! One of the best ever street photographers, Henri Cartier Bresson had that instinct to capture the decisive moment. Technically his images could be criticised, however his compositions are inspirational. Composition is king when it comes to street photography - and a genre of its own.
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Alan Roseman

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Jasenka,

Any news or help for this question? It would be appreciated. Pixoto could surely use some positive news these days.

This would certainly be a positive for the site. Think of the thousands of Street Photographers out there who might enjoy the duels on Pixoto... just one board on which I post has 136,700 members... most others are in the thousands..

Please consider this positive improvement for the Pixoto community...

It's not about the duels, it's about the art..

-Alan
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Jasenka, Official Rep

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Hello Alan, I'm sorry but we can't have it as a category, it would be impossible to moderate.
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Joyce Andersen

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I think the problem is that Pixoto has no way of determining if it is a street shot, or if it isn't, looking at a few of the entries in some of the challenges especially from Indonesia and India, some of those were obviously staged and posed models in a street like setting, but would not be what I consider street photography. they don't have the same feel and vibe, ambiance is lacking, and the immediacy of true street photography is lost in translation to some other cultures. And as I said previously... Pixoto perhaps is shy of the legality of non-released model images being on their site. a category consisting of nearly all images that are 'editorial' doesn't equate to sales.
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Mikki W

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Jasenka - if it's impossible to moderate as a category, how do you moderate it as a subcategory, which it already is? Or don't you bother?
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Jasenka, Official Rep

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Thank you Lenore for helping, you are correct, subcategories are not moderated.
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Alan Roseman

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Which is precisely why I have asked to make it a completely separate "Category".... and not a subcategory.. I really don't see the difficulty in this... at all.
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Mikki W

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If the subcategories aren't moderated, how did I have a photo forcibly moved from historic districts into neighborhoods, both subcategories within city, street and park? Presumably someone reported it as being in the wrong category and someone at Pixoto agreed - or is that not 'moderation'?
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Lenore

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Mikki, that should never have happened! Pixoto is supposed to only investigate reports on a wrong category. I would be mad if that happened to me too! I'm guessing that perhaps it was someone new on the Report Team who didn't understand their job fully.

If you post a link to the photo or contact Jasenka privately, I'm sure she will have it checked out.
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Mikki W

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It was a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was debatable at the time, but I'm not mad. I would much rather the subcategories were moderated. The fact that they are not frankly makes a mockery of the whole duel system and makes me care a whole lot less about everything I see here. It also explains, for example, why so many single flowers are entered into 'flower gardens' - they have a greater chance of winning there. It's one of many flagrant abuses of the spirit of the rules that are unlikely to ever be addressed. I support Alan's call regarding street photography, but it seems to me Pixoto has a lot of problems and little will to address them.
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Alan Roseman

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Joyce, Janeska...

I most respectfully disagree. There is absolutely no denying the fact that Street Photography stands alone as a paradigm.

It can serve as its own category.... as well it should.

I would also bring more traffic, and more photographers to Pixoto..

Joyce, how many pictures of single flowers do you think are sold on Pixoto?

Simple.. Street is recognized the world over for the art form that it is... Simply recognize it here at Pixoto... it's not as though the rest of the site is without debate...
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Joyce Andersen

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I do not argue with you Alan, I think it would be a great idea... I only am suggesting that Pixoto is fuelled by the dollar.... not the art. I think Street photography could stand alone, sub-categories of B&W, Animals, Rural, Urban, colour, Urban Art (graffiti and commercial), No people, what other possibilities?
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Alan Roseman

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Joyce,

Perhaps that is the simple thought which you should have articulated...
It does not require quite so much contemplation after all...

Street photography is a standalone art... I do not believe there are entire museum exhibitions world over featuring photo images of a single flower, or water droplets. But, perhaps I am wrong, or mistaken.

I love all photography... I simply love the art of street photography... more than I love the rest.

It's all about the art... why did any of us venture into this?
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Ciprian Apetrei

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A solution could be to have a Street and candid category, together B&W and colour, replacing the actual B&W-Street and candid and People-Street and candid. If we look in the Tops of those category, it is clear that the street photography is well hidden by repetitive portraits. Hoping that the ones that are now cloning portraits and flowers will not migrate to th new category, this should let the space to real photographs.

As those subcategories of Street and candid already exists, I see no problem to combine them into a new category. Thank you Alan for your suggestion.
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Alan Roseman

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Thank you Ciprian for your well thought comments... My only conflict would be allowing color at all, keep it simple...

I am a firm believer in that mantra, keep it simple.

We have a nice sub category... perfectly or aptly named:

Black & White - Street & Candid - we already have exactly what is necessary... just needs to be isolated, and left to stand on it's own... I do not see moderation as being overly tedious to manage .....

There can be no mistake about what belongs there....

"A Black & White image which is not posed" -

Anyone unfamiliar with street photography would have no difficulty what so ever finding information on the genre...

I am still hoping that Pixoto will emerge as a friend of photography and art on this matter...

I thank everyone who has taken the time to like or comment on the concern.

Not for the points, for the art...

-Alan
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Dragana Jankovic

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This is really not fair to compare street photography with a flower:
http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...#
Dragana Jankovic
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Lenore

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I completely disagree. In the Pixoto duels, we are not being asked to pick which subject matter we like best, we are being asked to pick the best photograph. If we allow our personal biases on the subject matter to overtake an objective opinion of the two photos, then that is our problem and not a problem with the duel system. That's my opinion, anyway :-)
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lou.plummer

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If you take a perfectly focused, perfectly exposed, perfectly post-processed picture of cow manure and it duels against a grainy, slightly out of focus image of Marines raising a flag over Iwo Jima, I'm not going to vote for the cow manure. Because a photo follows some arbitrary set of rules doesn’t it make it a good photo. Subject matter absolutely does matter. Art is subjective. It is 100% subjective. It's created for people, by people. Some people can be happy taking pictures for the encyclopdia of botany. Others want to take pictures that will win Pulitzers, that will appear on the cover of Time or be featured in a gallery. Those people want something original and challenging and meaningful. To distill art to a checklist is to condone it to a mere craft, no different than weaving potholders.
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Alan Roseman

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Here here!! Just perfectly said Lou...

PS> I have voted with my feet as they say... I have moved away from Pixoto... I no longer direct people here... I'm not angry either. I have simply come to understand... that Pixoto does not understand...
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Lenore

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Art is not what Pixoto is about. I have oodles of photos I would never post here because they just don't suit the site. I don't disagree with you guys and I have long said, over and over again, that art is subjective and that is how it should be. But this is a competition site, not a gallery site. There are other sites where one can build an online artistic gallery of their photos. Pixoto is all about the competition and we are supposed to pick the best photo, and for PIxoto, from my personal experience, that means technically perfect. (Whether we do or not is all up to us, of course.)

Last year, when Pixoto introduced the test of voting habits, I got banned for a while because I was voting for the artsy photos and not the technically perfect shots. I argued that a photo of an Amish couple who looked obviously unhappy with the photographer was a better photo, in my opinion, even though it was a bit out of focus and a bit over-exposed (not drastically) than that of a staged pretty girl in a stunning dress. Pixoto disagreed.

So, in my opinion, to approach Pixoto from an artistic point-of-view is just a waste of time. Take a look at the Leaderboard. Artsy photos rarely make it to the top. That's just how Pixoto is and likely always will be.
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Alan Roseman

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“Art is what we call...the thing an artist does.

It's not the medium or the oil or the price or whether it hangs on a wall or you eat it. What matters, what makes it art, is that the person who made it overcame the resistance, ignored the voice of doubt and made something worth making. Something risky. Something human.

Art is not in the ...eye of the beholder. It's in the soul of the artist.”
― Seth Godin

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