A fervent request for action from Jason or anyone else in Pixoto management!

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Mr. Garces has apparently reported three of my images of a mother gorilla in different poses with her three month old daughter. I'm not sure why he is doing this, but it seems to me that such blatantly false reports should have some consequences on those who continually target an individual for their own personal reasons.

In the last two days the following images have been re-categorized from Animals to Digital Art. The first one had already received a #2 for the day, in Animals, with a score around 760. The other two were re-categorized last night, all by the same person on the report team, Angelica Kezia. Hoping to avoid the drama Mr. Garces seems to enjoy by his fallacious actions, and hiding his real intent by claiming that somehow I am being treated with some kind of favoritism, I wrote Jasenka and sent her the unedited shot of the first high scoring image that was re-categorized, so she could show the report team the limited amount of editing that had occurred. She responded by telling me she would ask management for clarification. She gave me the same answer on a tiger shot that was reported and I never heard anything else from her or management. And now this latest fiasco with two more images, that were also high scoring have been re-categorized. The first one, which was moved for yesterday's contest, is slated to be #3 for the day in Digital Art. Since management has not gotten back to Jasenka, or just doesn't give a damn, I am deleting it in fairness to those images behind mine who legitimately belong in the Digital Arts category and deserve the points and awards. The two that were re-categorized early this morning sit at #'s 2 and 4 in the Digital Art category, and I will wait for Jason or some other member of management to give a clarification on their re-categorization, which I hope will come soon!

These are the images in question, the first of which, as I said, I am deleting before the awards come out at 11am EDT:

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra... (just deleted from Digital Art at 607 which would have put it at #3 for the day, a good 150 points below it's score in Animals when it was moved, after already been awarded #2 for the day in that category.

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

http://www.pixoto.com/images-photogra...

As for Mr. Garces, I have nothing but contempt for you. It seems you had a hissy fit because on of your shots was re-categorized and now you are taking it out on me. You have also discovered that if one wants to knock an image out of top ten contention, you don't report it as being a duplicated or even repetitive or very similar. One just has to claim it is in the wrong category and your job is done and the image will be moved! I find it ironic that you claim I and others who have been awarded top photographers for a number of years get special treatment, while at the same time all you have to do is report an image to be in the wrong category and it instantly gets re-categorized, especially if the person on the report team is Miss Kezia!
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John Larson

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Posted 5 years ago

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Augie Juliano

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John I agree with you that your two photos of mother and baby gorilla does not belong in digital art . How they made that decision is beyond me. I have been complaining that many animal photos don't belong in digital art unless it's been heavily photoshopped or a combination of layered photos. But so far it's fallen on deaf ears.
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RJ Photographics

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I would think a really good digital art shot would look realistic but using techniques that would not be possible with camera alone and traditional dark room techniques a bit like digital FX in movies , A good digital artist would do work thats looks totally real but just can't be , laws of physics and such, so digital art could include any image the artist says is so , and would be hard to exclude any image form it . but of course the sureal ones would most likely get the votes
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Lenore

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There are many, many images in Digital Art that have no business being there -- they don't look surreal or painterly or anything at all like that. I've reported many of them but as Augie points out, these reports go nowhere.

This totally ruins the Digital Art category for legitimate digital artists to compete in that category. The category seems populated by swirls that have nothing, really, to do with photography and photos that should be competing in other categories. It's no longer a place where digital artists can share their photographic creations, it's become some sort of Pixoto penalty box.

And that's not right. Not right at all.
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Lenore

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I've been thinking about this for the past few minutes and how the Digital Art category has become, as I mention above, Pixoto's Penalty Box. I think the solution is simple.

Get rid of the Digital Art category.

Since images are being allowed in there that look absolutely "real", let's just eliminate the category. Pixoto encourages extensive use of post-processing, a stance I support, so why not go all the way and just let the photos all compete with each other? That would end the decision-making that the Pixoto Report Team now have to make on photos reported that they should be in Digital Art and photos reported that they should not be in Digital Art. This would also have the pleasant consequence of speeding up the action on reports as now there would be fewer to deal with that require time to decide what is right.

Who suffers from this decision? Nobody. If a textured photo of a flower comes up in a duel and you don't like it, don't vote for it. And if that textured photo of a flower zooms up the Leaderboard in Flowers, well, that means the majority of the voters like it the best. Isn't that the point of Pixoto? What people like the best?
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Augie Juliano

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Lenore

I totally agree this totally ruins the Digital Art category for legitimate digital artists to compete in that category. The swirls have nothing, to do with photography and photos it made only on a computer using software. Digital art by definition is made from digital (camera) Jasenka has told me the pixoto team is now looking into this and should be addressed today or tomorrow I hope she is correct
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Bridgette Rodriguez

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John, again, in my opinion, Pixoto misses the mark by changing the category of these photos to Digital Art. There is nothing about these photos that are fantasy scenes, surreal or unreal. Something needs to be done ASAP about this ongoing issue between Garces and yourself and Pixoto. When people see things go on like this, it undermines the integrity of Pixoto and takes away the fun.
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Tim Hall

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This is worth saying again...Pixoto should have only two categories...

1. Folks with no photography skills or knowledge.
2. Digital artists.
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Johnny Thomas

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:)
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RJ Photographics

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whether I like the shots and their editing pixoto has ruled they are not digital art so they should not be moved
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Paul Cannon

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maybe a digital art catergory and
heavily effected catergory
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Renos Hadjikyriacou

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For my "sense of taste" those images are not looking naturaly.
Personaly i find the level of processing overstepped, the borderline is excessively optimistic.
The actual problem though, is that Pixoto, does not show us where the borders and limits are, it becomes a question of interpretation.
That is just exactly where everyones interpretability verys and differs.
In this case, John and Mr. Garces, are both from there standpoints right but widely different!
It is about time that Pixoto takes a stand and makes clean rules.
That is that!!°
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His processing may be overdone, but not to the point of being fantasy or unreal. I don't think so. Digital Art has a very specific description and it's not just overprocessing.
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Nick Goetz

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Here's the first post I made after starting on Pixoto. Seems this topic just keeps going "round and round"

It should read "Photo or Digital Art?" (sorry... in a hurry combined with being a naturaly bad speller).

http://community.pixoto.com/pixoto/to...\
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Johnny Thomas

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Nick, "Digital Art – This includes photo montages, fantasy scenes, constructed landscapes, artificial scenes and any photo compilation that is surreal or unreal...:" That is the description for Digital Art as Jasenka advised you, and these John Larson photos don't make the cut for Digital Art.
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Renos Hadjikyriacou

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@Johnny: says: "His processing may be overdone,"
Question , is it or is it not overdone and according to whos opinion and feeling?
The rules are no help and thats why we have this "problem" .
Those images are surely not pure Digital Art but also not natural photos due to "doctoring".
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Nick Goetz

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Johnny - Didn't say they did or didn't. I wasn't commenting on John's photos but to the topic in general. I was replying to Renos directly.

The problem was immediately obvious to a know nothing newbie (me). The current definition results in an apparently large and subjective margin for error.

This thread has produced 2 options to think about:
1 - Clarify what defines Digital Art vs a "photo"
2 - Do away with Digital Art as a Category
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Renos Hadjikyriacou

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@Nick:, when "away with Digital Art as a Category" where would you move it??
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Nick Goetz

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Renos - As Lenore said... "Get rid of the Digital Art category"

I'm guessing that means to eliminate it as a category.

If it can't be properly defined to where the majority of photographers/members can live with it, then what other options are there?

Maybe we need to live with Pixoto's decisions... right or wrong... agree or disagree. That old saying "you can't make all of the people happy all of the time" is more than a saying... it's a fact.

Problem is that sometimes we will get treated unfairly. I would hate to lose the current "appeal mechanism" that we are now using.
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Renos Hadjikyriacou

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@Nick: Elimnating it as a category would mean that those images will be shown in other categories which can not be the purpose ........ or you mean this category should be abandoned, non-existent? That wont be fair!!
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Nick Goetz

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Renos - I don't have an answer to your questions, just some "what if's"

Depends on what your definition of a photograph is.

Right now, Digital Art is a category under "Photography"

Failing the ability to define Digital Art to the satisfaction of the majority...

What if Digital Art was taken out of Photography and put in its own category, much like "Traditional Art" has it's own category.

What do you guys think?
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Renos Hadjikyriacou

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"What if Digital Art was taken out of Photography and put in its own category, much like "Traditional Art" has it's own category."
@Nick: This sounds reasonably to me!!
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Lenore

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Nick, I'm afraid I disagree with your suggestion. The problem appears to be that nobody really understands what belongs in Digital Art.

While I have suggested eliminating Digital Art, the core issue isn't the existence of the Digital Art category, so moving it would, in my opinion, not change anything. The issue is what qualifies to be in the category. Since Pixoto actively encourages "extensive use" of post-processing (their words) in all categories, it appears to be disingenuous on their part to penalize members for merely taking them up on that :-)

Either Pixoto should get rid of the category, or make the rules for it waaaay clearer and easy to follow.

Just my two cents :-)
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Jinnie Kassaw-Adams

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I agree, make the rules clear as drinking water, on digital art...or remove it. Make all the rules here clear. NO ambiguity at all. Listen to those who pay m$ney - which I think is a lot...since it really is important to us if we participate long term, or not. Thanks.
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Renos i agree wholeheartedly but sadly I'm not sure if they could ever clarify sufficiently so they have to make a decision.
I truly love the composition of these photos, they are fantastic but sadly i find them over processed also to the point of not looking real at all. If i had not seen the original post and arguments first i would have believed them to be digital images, its purely a matter of taste for me, i like photos in the raw, oh yes and the fact i would not even know where to begin to process a photo except add light!
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Lenore

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Janet, every setting on your camera contributes to the processing of your image. You can get crazy effects -- over-sharpening and over-saturation, to name but two -- and not use any post-processing software. Just play with your camera settings. :-)
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Janet Rose

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oh Lenore I always have such good intentions, i don't even read the manuals, I'm a point and shoot girl! Its my new resolution to get better however, thats why i joined this site, so far so good, time to move out of novices me thinks?
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Lenore

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:-)

Get to know your camera! You'll be wonderfully surprised at what you can do when you start taking more control of your shooting instead of letting the camera make all the decisions!

If you want to read some fun and easy-to-read photography tutorials, head over here: http://thepioneerwoman.com/photography/ .... I've recommended these to many of my friends and everybody seems to enjoy them.

The posts are not brand-new but you'll find interesting and good advice! Lots of help to get you out of Novice!! :-)
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Tim Hall

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i have always saw it this way...Having film inside is what makes a camera a film camera, right?

So...what makes a digital camera digital? A digital camera has a "processor" inside...All digital images are "processed" images, period, end of story. How vain and arrogant it would be to say one's own idea of processing is how everyone else in the world should see it,

(Attention: beating a dead horse warning)...If you click a shutter, you process your image...Beginners should google the 18% gray card, understanding the 18% gray card will give you a photographic epiphany moment...Your camera's processor and light meter try to make your entire choice of composition gray in order to blend all together into one tone to best measure light and suggest exposure settings.

Take an auto-exposed pic of a white object and the object will come out 18% gray...Now you understand why pics right out of the camera look grayed out, and need post processing. If your camera is putting 18% gray into the whites just imagine what an additional 18% gray is doing to your bright colors!

You can manually open up two stops of aperture to negate the 18% gray effect but that will overexpose your highlights...and you will need post processing to recover your highlights..

Either that or do what my wife does with her hair...learn to boost the color or just ...."go gray!" :-p
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Lenore

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Tim, I would add to that .... shoot in RAW.

PLEASE! Shoot in RAW.

The reason RAW files are so big is because they contain so much information. Learn to process your own images and use that information that has been so wonderfully and conveniently saved for you. When your camera is shooting in JPG, it makes a snap decision (sorry, no pun intended) on what to keep and when you press the shutter, it throws away all the information it doesn't think is needed and creates your photo out of what it kept.

I'll repeat that .... it throws away the into. It's gone. Forever.

However, it keeps it all in the RAW file. ALL of it.

Please, if your camera shoots in RAW, use it. You should be able to set it so it shoots both RAW and JPG images, so you can learn to process the RAW files but still have your JPGs too.
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RJ Photographics

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if you shoot in jpg you lose 75% of your photo ,jpg should be your final image not your starting one
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Joyce Andersen

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I like the idea Lenore of shooting in RAW.... but I can't afford the computer space lol.... that is a lot of data to store in my lil' ol' laptop :)
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Lenore

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Joyce, that's a great point. Portable hard drives are a necessity :-)
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RJ Photographics

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Joyce just shoot raw edit your shots, then just delete the raw version , but once you do that you wont go back , so maybe a portable hard drive to help
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Lenore

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Pixoto can easily get rid of the Digital Art category. It got rid of the News and Events category for a similar reason -- the majority of the photos going into that category were questionable; they could easily have fit into another category. The category became meaningless. This is now the norm for the Digital Art category -- it's no longer a category for artistic efforts.

I hope Pixoto is paying attention to this topic.
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Shooting America

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How about the getting rid of the Novice and Instagram and Mobile categories too? Most of the photos there are suspect anyway.
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Lenore

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I absolutely agree.
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Nick Goetz

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Sounds good Lenore & Shooting.
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Tim Hall

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Yes here too.
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RJ Photographics

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what about a category for highly processed shots ie if you can see the digital artifacts then its hi-processed shot , such as the little swirls you can see in these shots , just another idea to put on the bug stack of suggestions , but if you get rid of digital art cat then every category would be swamped and it will no longer be a photo site
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Joyce Andersen

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i have suggested deleting the instagram and mobile for ages now... they still hang in there
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Shooting America

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I have reservations about getting rid of the Digital Category though. It's about "be careful what you ask for, you might probably get" thing. It is all about unintended consequences. Imagine the "photogs" who are good in photoshop flooding the other categories. We already have issues regarding this in landscape where silhouettes of rural folks in a certain area of the world are set against sunset.
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Michael Moore

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There are also some of us, who occasionally like to create montages etc. and Digital Art is the perfect category for this work. It is frustrating for us when animals etc are incorrectly, as the majority in this thread think, submitted or recatagorised to this category.

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