Tarzans Desert Mystery and Philip Van Zandt

  • 1
  • Question
  • Updated 3 months ago
Need some help. In
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0035795/mediaviewer/rm2043051264
Philip Van Zandt is tagged to the image, and I assume that is correct. I'm hoping that someone with better eyes might be able to tell me which one he is.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0888349/

The reason I ask is because in the credits it says his scenes were deleted, but if he is in this photo not all were. I can confirm that scene and another the same 3 characters are present in the movie. I'd like to update the credits.

In case it helps, here is another image from a different scene with those 3.


Incidentally, the tagged image is not specifically in the version I watched. The overall scene is, but the specific image/frame is not.

I believe he is the guy on the left in the image above (and on the right in the tagged image).
I remember watching all these tarzan movies as a kid. Don't recall if it was Sat or Sun morn they were played, but whichever it was, I watched quite a few.
thx.
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes

Posted 3 months ago

  • 1
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
That's really tough.
Looking at the google image array, this seems a good representation, but year unspecified:

To me, the man you're thinking is Van Zandt looks older than VZ's age (b. 1904, film 1943) at the time, and it doesn't look like makeup makes those cheeks hollowed, or the distance between brow and eye so much more.

Here's one from '58 (Fifi, per the google caption, the year VZ died):


I don't think he's in either image.
And given that "Nancy Kelly" is tagged for the linked image, the credibility of the tags is questionable.
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
I should have stated: I don't recognize Van Zandt from my own film memories; his face is familiar, but not his name. I'm commenting strictly from looking at google images, which are sometimes mis-labeled. But the majority of the images in that search look like the photos I've shared above, and also look like most of the photos on his IMDb page.
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
She's in the bottom right of the tagged image. just her head. She was performing a magic trick by laying in a box. You have to see the scene to really understand.
You've got me re-looking at faces:(
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
Based on credits, this guy is big guy although I don't see it.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0269709


Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
Now that you link Frank Faylen to the highest-headed man, I do see the resemblance (eyes/cheekbones). FF I do know by name & face. This looks like a far cry from his usual casting.

Ah, the woman's head was covered by the "edit tags" bar when I viewed the photo. Neither her face nor name are familiar.
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
These credits are really messed up. I was just replaying a part and got a character's name and the actor it's attributed to it isn't.
Don't have time to go into more at the moment, but any idea how these credits got input?
I'll do a pic later showing what I found.
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Mike he is in the center. The one on the lefts nose has a distinct mid bridge bump. He's out!
The one on the right has a similar nose, but the cheekbones are wrong.
The dead giveaway is the bulbous tip of the nose. The man in the middle has this. The other two are pointy! Also the left eyebrow is different from the right. It is present in both pictures! It is probably an unconscious mannerism when acting.. This Eyebrow thing may be unique to Phillip Van Zandt.
This is in the picture posted above (Center)
In the linked picture he is the one Johnny Weissmuller has by the collar.
The other 2 in the picture are probably dayplayers
(Edited)
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
Mike established here that the one in the center of the photo posted on this page is Frank Faylen, and I concurred in the next post. He's in the center of the photo above, which is what you seem to mean by your post.
  
Source page for Ernie the cabbie shot.

The one Tarzan has by the neck might be the one with the eyepatch in the photo above, but his cheeks look too sunken (in both photos, to me) for Van Zandt:
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
You are correct. I missed the eye patch!
And with your two comparisons above, I'm now not so sure.
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
Sorry for having needed a break lol. (Imdb stopped paying me a few months back.)
Unfortunately this is one of those movies where only the actors' names are given but nothing with the characters' names matched to the actors.

The big guy in the image that id'ed as Frank Faylen is based upon his character's name and the imdb current credits. It possibly might not be him. (Hope that makes sense. Just in case, I know the character's name is Achmed Nogosh Segali from dialog. The other two guys aren't given names.)

Look at this picture.


I think this is Philip Van Zandt.
Right now this actor is in the credits as John Dehner.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0215000
and I don't think it is him.


This is the oldest pic I can find of him that's clear. Unfort it's 7 years later.


Here's another from over a decade later.


I've rescaned the movie and don't see anyone that I recognize visually or auditorily as Dehner.  I'll rescan/watch it again. The actor playing Prince Ameer to me doesn't sound like Dehner at all.  His voice from the work I recall is somewhat deep, rough, and gravelly but that's from stuff starting in the mid-60s. I believe I have the Maverick's he was in so that might help and gets me about a decade earlier.
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
Still more than a decade later unfortunately.


This link is for an image from 1950.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0215000/mediaviewer/rm3106285568
Not great as he's looking down, but ....

(Edited)
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
Here's one without mustache of Dehner, compared with Prince Ameer:

(NB: I've seen the same Dehner shot reversed, so don't count on comparing left sides of the face.)
I wanted a sans-mustache shot because the Ameer 'stache is very unlike Dehner's real one later in life.
I don't think Ameer was Dehner based on this photo. But I'm almost interested to watch that Tarzan film. The problem: Dehner's presence is uncredited, so it might not be him at all. (I do know Dehner's name & face from my media consumption, not just photos.) He's also uncredited in Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo ('44), but I don't find any images of him in that film via google, and watching it could be a looking for a needle in a barracks.

Here's a photo of Dehner, supposedly in a '46 film where he's credited, looking very much like the Dehner I know. So he didn't change a lot since the 40s.

Here's where you can watch Dehner in this '46 film: 
https://youtu.be/2aaWA_Vxw8o?t=190

I also watched some of the Tarzan film in question (dubbed in Hungarian(?)), and Prince Ameer doesn't look or move enough like Dehner for me.

Frank Faylen operated the saw in the truncated (pun) magic trick, and brought his comic chops. It was definitely Faylen, even without hearing his voice. I didn't recognize either of the others as Van Zandt, and since the 3 men in the tagged photo rm2043051264 also appear in the magic act (sawing the trunk) scene, I'm inclined to believe Van Zandt is not in the photo. But what if he's really the man with the eyepatch? (I don't think so; I'm just speculating.) Is it worth requesting a deletion of the tag?

Because Van Zandt is listed as "scenes deleted", I'm going to turn off the Hungarian Tarzan (although the horse is cute). Otto Kruger without his charming audible sneer is  too weird.
(Edited)
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
had to redo it, but here's 116 sec clip of the person that's currently attributed to Dehner.
I actually think this is Van Zandt.
https://youtu.be/S6lZor7k4Hc

Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1583 Posts
  • 2580 Reply Likes
I'm really not buying this as Van Zandt, but the eyepatch, the goofy smile...

Checking Wikipedia references:
AFI does not name the Van Zandt character, but they do ascribe character names to the 1st 7 billed.
Neither does TCM, although on its articles page, they mention cast, and VZ as Kushmet. That article cites sources from 3 periodicals in 1943, and a still-extant website about Edgar Rice Burroughs, which only lists VZ (Kushmet).
AllMovie also lists VZ (Kushmet).

But you know that internet sources propagate each other, so the best next step is finding those periodicals. This'll be interesting.

By the way, VZ appears in Tarzan Triumphs at 11:30, looking much too plump to be Kushmet. He's called Captain Bausch.
https://ok.ru/video/347064371898?fromTime=699


Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 17986 Posts
  • 20427 Reply Likes
Did it fit a widescreen? It may have been stretched slightly to fit the screen! The helmet darn near looks round. Helmets usually are oval!
(Edited)
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1583 Posts
  • 2580 Reply Likes
The video is not stretched.
This photo matches the others I posted of Van Zandt in terms of facial shape/appearance. And this Tarzan film was released the same year.
Here's a profile in the same scene (notice the light triangle on his face is part of a larger shaft of light):
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 17986 Posts
  • 20427 Reply Likes
He was putting on weight in later years Philip Van Zandt | Outer Space Jitters (1957)
Image result for phil van zandt
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 17986 Posts
  • 20427 Reply Likes
Rare color pic
Image result for phil van zandt
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Dehner. A bunch of photos in a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlEYX0UkcXc

Dehner and his unique voice. It never really changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KITa-8CZcK8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es85VpCGwAw

(Edited)
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
Yeah, Dehner is not Prince Ameer.
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Look at this video. It really has no pics until 30 seconds in of Phillip, but there are five different pics not here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQVDFvDq9gk

Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Image result for phil van zandtRelated image

Image result for phil van zandtRelated image



Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
The second one looks promising. Film? Year?
 
The two above look like the same guy.
But they still don't look like this to me:
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
The bottom can't be Van Zandt. The nose is all wrong!
The top 2 are.
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
Could not find any archive of Dec 1943 Hollywood Reporter.
Found the NYT article, but only the digitized version, which does not mention Van Zandt. Might be able to see the print if you subscribe. 
https://www.nytimes.com/1943/12/27/archives/the-screen-at-the-globe.html?searchResultPosition=1

It's a small world. Of all people, one would think that Tarzan, yodeling happily in his remote, jungle Utopia, would be least influenced by the war. But no. Maureen O'Sullivan, his erstwhile spouse by film contract at least, seems to be detained in England because of war conditions. At her request in "Tarzan's Desert Mystery," now at the Globe, her monosyllabic husband goes to a malarial quarter of the jungle in search of "fever medicine" to aid soldiers stricken in Burma. And on the way across the desert Tarzan runs afoul a pair of scheming Nazis, not to mention a likable wild horse, a stranded lady magician and assorted bedouins. The desert and the swampy jungle—the latter infested by prehistoric monsters—are as close as adjoining rooms in this fabulous adventure. Watching "Tarzan's Desert Mystery," one can almost believe himself back in the declining heydey of Pearl White and "The Perils of Pauline."But perhaps the small fry at least will be amused by people that behave like monkeys, and monkeys that behave like people. They should not question the feasibility of Tarzan's trek, clad in no more than a breechclout, across the burning desert sands. They should hardly be surprised that Tarzan should find at the first oasis a lady magician, who, it appears, is just making a little side jaunt after a North African USO tour. Nor, having accepted matters thus far, should they look askance when the Nazi agents pursuing Tarzan stumble into the jungle, where they are successively dispatched by angry lions and spiders as big as trucks. That sequence in which the luckless Nazi is crunched by the big spider should have the children screaming in their sleep for months to come—it's a curious episode to include in a children's movie. Or are the little wretches really so bloodthirsty?For the information of Miss O'Sullivan, detained in London, and for the older custodians of our morals, Tarzan remains strictly monogamous, despite the intrusion of the lady magician. Tarzan, that is, Johnny Weissmuller, didn't even so much as wink at Nancy Kelly.

At the Globe

TARZAN'S DESERT MYSTERY, screen play by Edward T. Lowe; from a story by Carroll Young; based on the characters created by Edgar Rice Burroughs; directed by William Thiele; produced by Sol Lesser for RKO Radio Pictures.Tarzan . . . . . Johnny WeissmullerBoy . . . . . Johnny SheffieldConnie Bryce . . . . . Nancy KellyHendrix . . . . . Otto KrugerKarl . . . . . Joe SawyerPrince Selim . . . . . Robert Lowery

A version of this article appears in print on Dec. 26, 1943 of the National edition with the headline: THE SCREEN; At the Globe.

============
The Variety review provides even less info, at least as presented on their website (and they posted it to the wrong year):
https://variety.com/1942/film/reviews/tarzan-s-desert-mystery-1200414023/
HOME FILM REVIEWS DECEMBER 31, 1942 11:00PM PT
Tarzan’s Desert Mystery
Tarzan's Desert Mystery doesn't miss a thing with its quota of Nazi agents and gruesome animals, plus the usual Tarzan jungle scenes.
By VARIETY STAFF

With: Johnny Weissmuller Nancy Kelly Johnny Sheffield Otto Kruger Joe Sawyer Lloyd Corrigan
Tarzan’s Desert Mystery doesn’t miss a thing with its quota of Nazi agents and gruesome animals, plus the usual Tarzan jungle scenes.

Picture [from a screen story by Carroll Young] opens with Tarzan (Johnny Weissmuller), Boy (Johnny Sheffield) and the chimp Cheta setting out across a desert to find a cure-all herb ordered by Mrs Tarzan in London. On the way they run into Connie Bryce (Nancy Kelly), an American vaude performer who is on her way to warn a local sheik that Hendrix (Otto Kruger) and Karl (Joe Sawyer) are a couple of Nazi agents trying to stir up trouble. Things look tough for Tarzan and his crew when he is accused of stealing a stallion intended for the Sheik, and Connie is framed on a murder charge and sentenced to be hanged.

Kelly turns in a workmanlike performance as an American magician. Weissmuller, young Sheffield and Cheta are per usual. Kruger just dosen’t belong as the Nazi. Film is nicely paced and photography highly effective.

=================
So the print media references from TCM are unhelpful regarding Van Zandt.
(Edited)
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
That article left out the ginormous Spider!!!!
https://bigdamnspider.com/2017/09/18/tarzans-desert-mystery-1943/



Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
John Dehner should NOT be tagged in that photo.
He is most likely NOT this actor. I have watched the video clip Mike provided; he does not look, move or sound like Dehner.
Dehner may not be in this film - he's uncredited on IMDb.
Let's not propagate sketchy information.
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
You misunderstand. I made no reference that Denher be put there. Just that it needs to be tagged.
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
And if you followed the posts above about that scene:
1) the male character is called Prince Ameer. Nancy Kelly says it at the end of the scene.
2) Prince Ameer is (likely wrongly) credited to John Dehner (uncredited) on the IMDb cast list.
Therefore it is impossible to correctly tag the photo with the actor's name.
I'm not aware of being able to tag a photo with a character's name without the Actor  being attached.
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
He is Sheik Amir not a Prince
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
I only put Prince cuz that's what the imdb credits had and didn't want to cause more confusion than already is out there. He is definitely called Sheik in that scene.
(Ed look at
https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/poll-suggestion-most-iconic-detective
for thanks I give you. I really appreciate your suggestion.

Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
Already cited 3 other internet sources with VZ as Kushmet.
And mentioned before in this thread: internet propagates information (without regard to accuracy.)
The quest would be to find substantiating sources that pre-date the internet.
Because our eyes tell us he was not Kushmet.
I just posted my results for chasing the 3 print sources cited in the TCM article; no help.
Can others be found?
How about something that substantiates the IMDb claim that VZ's scenes were deleted?

=======
Didn't want to generate another email, but here are 2 more screenshots of Van Zandt (1943)
https://ok.ru/video/347064371898?fromTime=1179
 
(Edited)
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Van Zandt is definitely credited and his character name is Ahmed.
I am watching this as we speak. He is most definitely the man in the center of the pic way up top. Also the Ameer is misspelled and is not a prince. He is referred to as Sheik Amir. Obviously someone added this that had no clue how to spell Amir.


(Edited)
Photo of Ed Jones (XLIX)

Ed Jones (XLIX)

  • 18019 Posts
  • 20470 Reply Likes
Van Zandts character is Ahmed Nogash Segalhi. The other two never speak and as such would have never received an on screen credit. Also in this scene, Connie Bryce makes reference that she requires Ahmaed as her stooge to be the man who saws her in half.
This is an "In" joke reference to Van Zandt's many appearances on the 3 Stooges Shorts!




(Edited)
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1585 Posts
  • 2583 Reply Likes
Yes, Van Zandt is credited onscreen, but his character name is not.
The scene and photos you share have already been discussed. This is Frank Faylen, already listed on IMDb as Ahmed, uncredited on the film.

Van Zandt appeared with Moe Howard in 14 films from 1948-1958 (plus 1 in 1940 where VZ is an uncredited Soldier):
This Tarzan film was released in 1943.
If the scene is at all related to the 3 Stooges, it is NOT a reference to Van Zandt's future appearances with them.
(Here are the 204 shorts with Moe Howard & Larry Fine, 1933-1963.)

A "stooge" is showbiz (stage) terminology that predates the act The 3 Stooges.
https://www.etymonline.com › word › stooge
stooge (n.) 1913, "stage assistant, actor who assists a comedian," of uncertain origin, perhaps an alteration of student (with the mispronunciation STOO-jent) in sense of "apprentice."
Meaning "lackey, person used for another's purpose" first recorded 1937.
The Three Stooges film slapstick act debuted in movies in 1930, originally as "Ted Healy and His Stooges."
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
First, THANKS to all. You guys are all great and I knew if I asked I'd get great detectives and people like me that like to make imdb better.

Right now I'm not 100% sure what's the right thing to do/correct. I think I have the other Tarzan film that VZ is credited in which would give a better contemporaneous pic. 

And I need to absorb quite a bit because besides VZ I think it's fairly obvious that Dehner is not the character he's currently credited as.

So I'll be back as Arnie would say once I can dig out a few more things.
BTW the video I've got posted I'll be taking down later today as even though only 116 secs, I don't like posting copyrighted vids unless it's for a short time for a purpose.

Thanks all again.
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
Here's another image from Tarzan Triumphs and if you look close you'll see that the character is wearing a monocle on his left eye which seems mighty similar to Kushmet having an eyepatch on his left eye.
So I think it's pretty likely this is Van Zandt and that he was Kushmet, although I have to be honest that I don't see a great likeness. So that resolves one character and I've submitted the correction.
I still think Dehner is wrong but I'd really like to know who it actually is.


(Edited)
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1583 Posts
  • 2580 Reply Likes
Is the 2nd pic hiding text underneath?

For me it's no sale. The eye looks too different - brow bone lower on Kushmet than on VZ. Looks too much older & thinner than in the other '43 Tarzan.
Not saying it's impossible. Just not buying it.

2nd pic: you don't have a date for that one, do you? I think it's quite a bit later than '43. And is the bend in the nose really a shadow?
(Edited)
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
unfort no. got it from your google array link. I'm virtually positive that bend isn't a shadow as I saw a lot of broken noses in my past.
Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1583 Posts
  • 2580 Reply Likes
Well, if you just click the link below the image on the google array, it takes you to the source page, and it lists that as an image from Flame and the Arrow (1950). That's the photo with the shadow.
https://www.aveleyman.com/ActorCredit.aspx?ActorID=84087
2 other photos on that page: 1943 & 1951. Worth a look.
Photo of MikeTheWhistle

MikeTheWhistle

  • 824 Posts
  • 1110 Reply Likes
I'll take a look. Out of curiosity, do you think it's PVZ in the Capt Bausch role?
Oh and I know you're right that scenes were cut with PVZ. The image on imdb
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0035795/mediaviewer/rm2043051264
is not in the movie I watched on tmc. The overall scene is, but that specific frame/image/whatever the right name, is not there. So there were cuts around that scene where perhaps he did speak. It's unfortunate he didn't have a speaking part because that would make it much easier.

Photo of bderoes

bderoes, Champion

  • 1583 Posts
  • 2580 Reply Likes
do you think it's PVZ in the Capt Bausch role?
I do. I posted shots from 2 different scenes above.
And the plump nature of his face makes sense for his age that year, and for his face's structure. The Kushmet photo doesn't.

Here's a shot from 7 years later, in Where Danger Lives (1950), where he's 9th billed, and doesn't show up until an hour and 6 minutes, when the film is only an hour and 22 (but this is really a 2-person film), and he's gone after 2 min.
https://ok.ru/video/267363814051?fromTime=3918