Someone keeps reverting changes to 'Language' and 'Original title' for the movie Idu k tebe... (1971)

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  • (Edited)
Someone keeps reverting changes to 'Language' and 'Original title' for the movie Idu k tebe... (1971). The changes get reverted within less than a couple of hours after they get approved by imdb data editors, so I'm suspecting it's probably someone within imdb data edtiors stuff who's updating this. Can you please explain who's doing it and why?

For backgroundboth the original language of the film and original title of the film are in Russian (
see film with original audio is in Russian:
1) 'Original
title' for this film Idu k tebe... (1971). Original title is in Russian as seen in credits is Idu k tebe (1971) / https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5299510/ (this is clearly seen in the movie @2:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59w6uapSWE ). Per help.imdb.com : "imdb uses the original title of a movie/show in its original language as it appears on screen (on the title card) in the opening credits" (https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/titles/title-formatting/G56U5ERK7YY47CQB). As can be seen in film credits/title card the titles is 'Иду к тебе' romanized as 'Idu k tebe' (see film opening credits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59w6uapSWE).
2) Original film langugage is Russian ( see film with original Russian audio: https://tvkultura.ru/brand/show/brand_id/59746/  or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59w6uapSWE )


Examples of my submissions that got approved (and then someone reverted updates within 8-10 hours):
#200413-142336-511000 (language update: April 13, 2020; Approved)
#200405-015523-112000 (language update: April 4, 2020; Approved)

Examples of my submissions that got declined (then they got approved after I contacted imdb, and then someone reverted again the updates within 8-10 hours):
#200327-061001-043000  (title update: March 27, 2020: Declined with 'Duplicate' but later approved after I contacted imdb via website)

Can someone invsetigate, what's going on? Can you leave a note to data editors asking not to revert the change?
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piznajko

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Posted 5 months ago

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piznajko

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FYI, this is was previously marked as "resolved" in the previous topic, but is obviously not (see https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/unable-to-fix-original-title-for-tt5299510)

Also, today the EXACT same thing happend: request got approved (see request from April 18, 2020 #200419-013342-596000 ), yet within hours (possibly minutes) someone reverted it back.

(Edited)
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Grayson, Employee

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Hey - Upon investigating this title I found this trivia item:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5299510/trivia?item=tr5071411

IMDb lists title by their original releases, and the first release of this title was in Ukraine so the title and language are correct currently.
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piznajko

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Hi Grayson,

The imdb rules don't say anything about basing original title & language on the "country of release" (in this case you say it's Ukraine). In fact country of release has absolutely NO effect on the original title/language of the film.

1) Regarding original title: Imdb rules specifically say to only list the title in the original language as is seen in the credits, which for this title is clearly a Russian phrase Idu k tebe... ( see where it says "Иду к тебе..." @2:54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59w6uapSWE , I've included a snippet of it below). Here's the verbatim rule: "imdb uses the original title of a movie/show in its original language as it appears on screen (on the title card) in the opening credits" (source: https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/titles/title-formatting/G56U5ERK7YY47CQB ).



2) Regarding original language: Imdb rules specifically says to, quote, "list any language spoken". As was clarified by Will in another similar discussion, this imdb rule refers to the languages originally spoken on set (e.g., for The Good, The Bad, and The Evil https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060196/ imdb lists English, Spanish and Italian because these were the the languages spoken originally on set, regardless of the fact that Spanish/Italian was later over-dubbed into English in post-production).

There's also a clear legislative precedent for such cases: for languages there's this case clarified by Will in 2019. I ask impartial IMDb employee to please re-review this case and change this from "Solved".

p.s. Also , the trivia that you quoted actually supports MY case to change the title/language to Russian, because it says that original title/language were Russian and the Ukrainian version is just a dubbed-version:

A film with deep Ukrainian themes, such as the fate and survival of the Ukrainian nation, people, and language within the USSR, it was actually filmed in Russian. After an extensive and extended review and censorship by the Communist Party was completed, it was dubbed into Ukrainian for release in the Ukrainian SSR, where it was first released in late 1971. The Russian version was subsequently widely released throughout the USSR in mid 1972.
(Edited)
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meka

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I agree with piznajko, country of release shouldn't impact original language of a film.
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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piznajko, I too agree.
But Grayson marked it solved.
Maybe a Champion will come along and change this from solved to acknowledged so that staff will take a second look.
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piznajko

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So, the story repeats itself: I checked an hour ago, and both the original title and original language were corrected to  Idu k tebe... and Russian respectively. Finally, corrected, I thought...

Not so fast. I just checked now (time that passed: less than an hour) - and lo and behold, it's now reverted back to the wrong values. Which confirms my suspicion: these updates are made by an imdb employee/data editor, no one else could've updated this so fast (title/language updates take days to be approved when submitted by contributors).

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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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piznajko, not necessarily IMDb employee, though: some people do check for updates that often. That is especially common in edit wars. I know myself because that's how I usually re-check during extensive vandalism attacks on my titles, one was just recently handled. 
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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Like another case of vandalism on my page
I am presently married to Audrey Hepburn!!!! with one child!
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8529286/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

Plus I have to keep up with several titles and watch therm for reversions due to edit wars also. If IMDb would actually block changes after a ruling here, just think of how much time would be freed up not having to deal with topics like this over and over and over again.

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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Ed Jones(XLIX), sorry to hear vandals are targeting you again. Have you submitted the deletion request already? 
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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Yes. Yesterday.
It's one of three persons.
The ones I referenced before that they will not suspend for abusive language towards staff and anyone that disagrees with them.
(Edited)
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piznajko

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Hi Grayson, where did you land? I see that the reverses still keep happening (e.g., submission like the one from April 18 #200419-013342-596000 get approved, and then someone from IMDb employees reverses it within hours).
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Ed Jones(XLIX)

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piznajko.
Nikolay stated to you that IMDb is not the one that reverses your submissions immediately.
You have a silent person that has never made any comments to you directly here that does however read this forum and is submitting reversal changes the minute you post that your contributions have been reversed. IMDb editors do not act on any thing "Unless" as submission has been made by a contributor.
This was being done to me. So I stopped posting my issues here when I knew that another contributor was looking at what I was doing. My reversals almost stopped immediately when I stopped posting any relevant data here about the titles name.
You over explain your submissions here. This post clearly states the title in question. You want to stop the reversals? Stop posting any more data that identifies the title. Do that, and you will not be coming here over and over on the same thing. If you post no reference to the title, no one can undo your work!
(Edited)
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motley_moth

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Hello Everyone,

I do not participate on this new board here at GetSatisfaction very often, so many of you do not know me. But I have been contributing to the IMDb since 2005. I have a Gold Badge for my Lifetime Total, and individual Gold Badges for Titles, Filmography, Plot, Trivia, Images, and Names. (The Gold level is reserved for roughly the top 1-2% of all contributors). I was a Top Contributor in 2012, 2013, and 2014. You can see my profile on the main IMDb site here: motley_moth. You may note that I have a Contributor Helper Badge, which was the old equivalent of a GetSatisfaction Champion. That was given to me personally by Col for helping other contributors on the old IMDb Contributors Help Board.

Now, there seems to be considerable confusion about this issue among both contributors and, unfortunately, some inexperienced managers.

So, let's walk through this.

First, there is a fundamental difference between the production of a film and the release of a film. Everyone should already know this. It should be intuitively clear. But, to clarify, the production of the film involves, at the least, the creating of the idea, or pre-production, the writing of the script, financing, hiring the director and crew, building the sets and finding locations, casting, and the actual filming, followed by post-production, which usually includes editing of the film and recording of the final soundtrack. The release of a film is when it is finally exhibited or screened to the public in its completed form.

Second, there may be many releases of a film. The rules in the IMDb often refer to what is called the original release. Usually, the first release is the original release. There may be exceptions to this, however, if the country of production - ie., who paid for it - determines an alternate release schedule for some reason, in which case the release in the country of production is the original release. Most films in the IMDb fit the former case. An example of the latter are the staggered international releases that have often been used by Hollywood over the last decade or so, where some foreign releases come out before the release in the USA. So the original release of a film is either the first release or, if the release schedule is unusual, the release in the country of production. More often than not, of course, the first release and the release in the country of production will be the same.

Third, the title and the language of the film that appear in the IMDb are both determined by the original release of a film. There is no connection whatsoever between any language or languages used during production and the title and language that appear in the IMDb. If the language used during production is different from the language used in the original release - and it's interesting - that can be noted in a trivia item, as was done here.

Fourth, to understand how the title and language in the IMDb are determined, you need to examine the relevant rules in IMDb Help:

1) The Title --

The first sentence under the subheading "Title formats" in "Adding a new title" states:
"We use the original title of a movie/show in its original language as it appears on screen in the opening credits." [bold in original]
To make this absolutely clear, this is, of course, referring to the original release.

This is repeated and further expanded on in the third bullet point under the subheading "Title formatting general rules" in "Title formatting":
"We use the original title of a movie/show in its original language as it appears on screen (on the title card) in the opening credits. So all alternative titles found on posters, DVD boxes, reference books, trailers, websites, re-releases, etc. are irrelevant. They do NOT define what the primary title should look like. All titles must include the year of first public screening enclosed in ()'s as explained further below." [bold added for emphasis]

This film was first screened in late 1971 in the Ukrainian SSR with a Ukrainian title card. The country of production was the Ukrainian SSR. Hence, as both the first release and the release in the country of production, the release in the Ukrainian SSR was the original release. As the rule states, the re-release in mid 1972 throughout the USSR in Russian is irrelevant. The screening in late 1971 also determines the year of the title, not the later re-release in mid 1972.

2) The Language --

The first bullet point under the subheading "A. Languages - Overview" in "Languages" states:
"The IMDb languages section records the languages spoken in titles in the database." [bold added for emphasis]
Note that this refers to the language or languages spoken in the title, ie., what is heard by the audience. There is nothing here at all about any language or languages used during production. There is also nothing here about whether it is a dub or not.

Further down, the third bullet point under the subheading "B. Key Submission Rules" further clarifies this:
"Please note that this refers to the original release; we do not record dubbing languages for foreign releases in this list, or DVD subtitle options." [bold in original]

The language spoken in the original release in late 1971 in the Ukrainian SSR was Ukrainian. It does not matter that it was a dub. It only matters that it was spoken, ie., that it was what was heard by the audience. The later re-release of the Russian version in mid 1972 can be considered a foreign release under this definition. (If the fact that the Ukrainian version used a dub is confusing, keep in mind that the Russian version was also a dub. They were both done in post-production. If an audio recording was made during filming, it's not what is heard in the Russian version.)

In conclusion, both the title and the language in the IMDb should be in Ukrainian. The Russian title can and should be listed as an AKA.


Finally, don't feel bad if this is confusing to you, or seems "odd" or "weird". It does seem counter-intuitive at first. You have lots of company. I have been here since 2005, and I have seen this confuse many, many people - even managers! - over the years. But the example that is often given to help explain this is the spaghetti western Il buono, il brutto, il cattivo (1966). I first saw this example given by the former Senior IMDb Data Editor Jon Reeves more than a decade ago. It was filmed in the European style, where every actor spoke their lines in their native language. There was often no or only minimal sound recording done during filming back then, with all sound added later in post-production. Every release throughout the world has been a localized dub. But the very first release was in Italy using an Italian title card with an Italian dub. Italy was also the country of production. Hence, the release in Italy was the original release. So it is listed in the IMDb under its Italian title with Italian as its language. English-speakers, of course, know this as "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly".

I hope this helps clarify this issue. If there are any questions, feel free to ask.

Sincerely,
motley_moth
(Edited)
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piznajko

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Marco, we then come down to the definition of the original release. The real original release is the first release in the original language (in majority of cases it's the language used on set), and not the very first release in a dubbed language. To illustrate my point:
1) The very first release of The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor was in Russian dubbing on 24 July 2008 (as week earlier than the release in English in USA on 1 August 2008). By your logic Marco, we would have to say that the original release was on 24 July 2008 in Russian dubbing and therefore imdb should state that original language of The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor  is Russian
2) The very first release of Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters was again in Russian dubbing on 17 January 2013 (as week earlier than the release in English in USA on 25 January 2013). By your logic Marco, we would have to say that the original release was on 17 January 2013 in Russian dubbing and therefore imdb should state that original language of Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters  is Russian.

There are plenty of cases like these where movies get released in a foreign language (e.g., non-original language used on set) earlier by days/weeks/months before the real original release in the original language (e.g., in most cases the language used on set). The case of this particular movie Idu k tebe... we're discussing here is no different: the original language of the film is Russian (main actors were Russian who did not speak Ukrainian) and the real release of the movie happened in 1973 when the version with original Russian language was released in the USSR (the release in 1971 of a version dubbed in Ukrainian is not the real original release, but rather a release of dubbed version).
(Edited)
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Marco

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I see your point Piznajko. I agree that we wouldn't want to list Russian as a language for The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor and Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters. On the other hand, it all depends on what IMDb considers the original release. A definition of it isn't given in the language guide, but if the definition would simply be "the first release of a title", we would have to list Russian to the two aforementioned titles. Since probably nobody wants that because it doesn't feel right and the movies weren't made in that language, the definition should be more nuanced. Hopefully, a staffer will weigh in and tweak the guide to avoid confusion in the future. Especially in the case of Idu k tebe, where the release of the Russian version was released two years after the Ukranian version, I can imagine more guidance would come in handy.
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Marco

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FWIW: I didn't have dubbing in my mind when writing my previous post in this thread, I was more thinking about the (theoretically) possible differences between what language is used on the set and which one is shown in the original release, perhaps due to members of cast and crew not being able to speak a certain language.
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piznajko

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Marco, also apologies for an earlier typo: Version w/ Russian original audio was released in mid 1972 (not 1973), e.g., a couple of months later than the version w/ Ukrainian dubbing which was released in late 1971 or early 1972 (I saw records of the film review by Ukrainian professional film critics on Feb 17, 1972 in Ukrainian-language magazine "Культура і Життя", which implies Ukrainian-dubbed version was released around that time-frame)

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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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piznajko, regarding the point of languages of original release: it depends on whether said release retains the original title card in English, as well, which is a case-to-case scenario. That is mostly the case for many Russian dubs, so I guess that both 

Plus there is a certain degree of studio control over the situation in play, I guess. 
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Grayson, Employee

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Hi everyone - thank you all for your contributions and spirited discussions. It’s great to see everyone sharing such a passion for movies and we really appreciate all of your help and input in making IMDb the most complete and reliable source of movie, TV, and entertainment information on the web.

We have reviewed the information provided by everyone and can see that this particular title does not fit within our current standard formats and so have decided on the following: The title card has been shown to read “Idu k tebe” on screen and so that will be the primary title text we will display. Please refrain from submitting updates to change the primary title text from this, any other titles can and should be submitted as an alternate title.

Regarding the language, due to the unique nature of this case, we have decided to display both languages with attributes to detail the difference. The languages are from here on out going to show as: "Russian (original spoken language) | Ukrainian (original release dub)“

Thank you again for all your contributions and input in this case.
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piznajko

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Grayson thanks for resolving this! Will just add one thing: this is NOT an ideal solution on the front of the languages, because it goes directly against the current imdb Languages rules that specifically forbid listing dubbed versions and opens a pandora box in the future: a contributor might stumble upon this discussion and say "wait a second, if imdb allows adding a dubbed version for this move, then, why don't I add 50+ dubbed versions to this Disney movie I like..."
(Edited)
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Grayson, Employee

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@piznajko - that's why we've said this is a special case. Editors will decline any other attempts to do the same.
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motley_moth

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Grayson, Here is the original Ukrainian title card from "Idu do tebe...".

Grayson,

This is a continuation of the earlier thread about this title, which, since it has been marked "Solved", will no longer be examined by managers. You can append this post to that thread when this actually is finally solved.

In closing that thread, you stated: "The title card has been shown to read “Idu k tebe” on screen and so that will be the primary title text we will display."

I repeatedly stated in the earlier thread that the original release in the Ukrainian SSR in late 1971 had a Ukrainian title card. But I did not actually post it. Since, apparently, a picture is worth a thousand words of "spirited discussion", here it is:



That is Ukrainian. The transliteration is "Idu do tebe...".  This is the title card that appeared in the original release in the Ukrainian SSR in late 1971. It predates the Russian title card used in the wide re-release in mid 1972 by more than half a year. Now that you've seen the original Ukrainian title card from the original release, and you can see that it reads "Idu do tebe..." on screen, I trust that, following the IMDb rules and your own reasoning, you will see and agree that "Idu do tebe..." should be the primary title in the IMDb.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I am certainly willing to discuss this further.

Sincerely,
motley_moth