Remove Actress from credits

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Remove Vivian Vance from credits for EADIE WAS A LADY (1945). My edit has been rejected more than once. Vance is NOT in this film. Her credit as "Lady on the Stairs" refers to Vance's role singing the song "Eadie Was a Lady" in TAKE A CHANCE (1933). IMDb rejects my edit, saying it can't be verified. The error is obvious and besides, VIVIAN VANCE WAS NOT IN THE 1945 FILM. I've seen it. I have a copy of the film.
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drednm

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Posted 10 months ago

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Michelle, Official Rep

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Hi drednm -

Can you post the submission reference numbers associated with your recent credit removal requests?
(Edited)
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bderoes, Champion

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Even if your copy of Eadie Was a Lady (1945) were an official studio release, it may be that Vivian Vance was in the original version of the film. Unfortunately films were not preserved for posterity, and even "good" copies can be incomplete.

Did you find someone who might fit the description Lady On The Stairs, and perhaps resembles Vance?

I found a clip of Vance in the '33 film,
https://youtu.be/NLLC-CHOl0k
and she's easily recognized, even to someone who mostly knows her from the I Love Lucy years (20 later). So she should be recognizable in '45 as well.
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drednm

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#190924-183054-676000

I submitted this twice, the second time making it more obvious she was not in the film.

Vance was not in the 1945 film. It would make no sense since the 1945 film is not a remake of TAKE A CHANCE. It's a new screenplays built around the song, not the original play or film. Ann Miller sngs and dances the "Eadie" number. There's no one on any stairs. The existing credit obviously refers to TAKE A CHANCE '33 in which Vance is on a stairway and belts out a section of the song "Eadie Was a Lady."  n the 1945 film, the lyrics of the songs are radically shortened and cleaned up, as opposed to the pre-Code '33 version. This is a simple and obvious credit error.

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bderoes, Champion

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You said "the second time making it more obvious she was not in the film". How?

I appreciate the logic of your theory, and can confirm (with the video clip posted earlier) that Vance is standing on a stairway in the '33 film. I'm actually inclined to agree with your theory, especially since Vance has no other film credit between '33 and '50.

But it is still possible that Vance was in the '45 film, just not in the copy you have, even if it's the only version extant. Scenes/segments of films have been lost before. Could the credit have been listed on studio records? Does IMDb have source notes about the posting of that credit that they will share?

AFI does not list Vance in the cast:
https://catalog.afi.com/Film/24393-EADIE-WASALADY
and lists 
Production Date:
11 Sep--7 Oct 1944

I can't find anything definitive about where Vance was in that part of '44, but she was married to Philip Ober from '41-'59, and he has no Hollywood credits between '34 and '50.

Here we get a reference to the couple being in Africa in '44, but not which part of the year:

She was in The Voice of the Turtle the second half of '45, documented below.

Here we get the origination of the USO tour (p.126):

page 130:

same page:

and Amazon will not let me get to the next page.
However, she doesn't have her nervous breakdown until during The Voice of the Turtle in early '46.
From the Chicago Stagebill Yearbook (1947)


None of which actually rules out Vance's appearance in Eadie.
But it seems highly improbable.
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drednm

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The context of the 1945 film EXCLUDES any possible appearance by Vance in the film. The fact that she is identified in the 1945 cast list by the character she played in the 1933 films says it all. I just watched the 1945 film the other night. Vivian Vance is not in it and never was. It's either a simple error by IMDB or someday added the credit by mistake or as a joke.

Instead of some "editor" saying my edit cannot be verified, it makes more sense for them to try to prove Vance was in the film. The only way to prove she's not in the film is to watch it. SHE AIN'T THERE.

I've run into this same "cannot be verified" baloney before. I tried to add Inez Palange to the cast for PEG O' MY HEART (1933). They said cannot be verified. I said she's obviously in the film and is in several scenes. Cannot be verified. I posted a screen shot (it's still there) of Palange in a scene with Marion Davies. They still won't emend the cast list.
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bderoes, Champion

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You've been reiterating the same points: she's not in the film that you have (which may be an edited version of the film - a scene could have been lost to a bad break in the print that was the source of your copy) and the vague description of her character ("Lady On The Stairs") matches another film where she appears on a staircase and sings the song Eadie Was a Lady, the title of the film where you don't see her.

Just because you feel VV doesn't fit in the '45 film doesn't mean she couldn't appear there.
I already agreed that it is likely she did NOT.
But "likely", or even highly probable, is not a verification of FACT.
We have LOST films on IMDb with cast lists. No one can see those films now, but documentation was used to enter the casts of those films.

You are not acknowledging my point that the version of the film you have may not be the original version, where someone might have been onscreen in the original that you can't see now.
Think if the only surviving version of Lady Be Good (1941) were one where the Berry Brothers had been excised for regional preferences. Would you then be arguing that the Berry Brothers should not have that IMDb credit because YOU didn't see them in the extant version of the film?

We'll see if an IMDb staffer will use the extra evidence I've collected, and conclude the probability is very, very high that you are correct, or if they'll keep her on the cast until better proof comes along.

Here's a little more from Vance's biography (the source of the large-font screenshots above.): I can't access the filmography (seems to be called Play List in the table of contents) nor the last page (131) about her USO tour. But searching for Eadie in that book yields no results,

while searching for Take a Chance looks like it appears on the Play List (p.298) and earlier in the text:

Her other films:




This edition of the book was published in the year 2000; IMDb was created 1998.

IMDb editors: if the addition of Vivian Vance to the title Eadie Was a Lady (1945) came AFTER the bulk of the cast was entered, I would side with drednm that this credit should be removed unless you retained some sort of corroborating evidence. 
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drednm

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Vance was working on the East Coast on Broadway in several shows in the 1940s. Vance is not mentioned in any of the trade papers as being involved in this film shot on the West Coast. Vance would not in any case have been a big enough name to warrant any sort of "cameo: to reprise her 1-minute appearance from a forgotten 1933 film.
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bderoes, Champion

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I don't see anything on IMDb's  Eadie Was a Lady (1945)  pages that indicates Vance sang anything. None of the Soundtracks items includes performers.

Even though I've documented that Vance was in Africa and Italy on a USO tour in mid-1944, I found nothing about where and when she returned to the States, nor her whereabouts until July '45 when she was in the play in Chicago. It is entirely possible with these gaps in her story that she visited a friend on the Coast and worked as an extra on the '45 film. It is only unlikely, not impossible.

The trivia item below should be edited to delete the first sentence. No one can be certain there wasn't some version of the film where Vance (or Rita Hayworth, or anyone alive at the time) appeared.



But IMDb is a database of FACTS, and they should not list Vance among the cast unless they have good reason. I reiterate:
if the addition of Vivian Vance to the title Eadie Was a Lady (1945) came AFTER the bulk of the cast was entered, I would side with drednm that this credit should be removed unless [IMDb] retained some sort of corroborating evidence. 
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drednm

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The trivia item below should be edited to delete the first sentence. No one can be certain there wasn't some version of the film where Vance (or Rita Hayworth, or anyone alive at the time) appeared.

Using this reasoning, then EADIE WAS A LADY obviously originally starred Greta Garbo and Laurence Oliver but they were ultimately replaced by Ann Miller and Joe Besser. There is not one single piece of evidence to even hint that Vivian Vance was ever attached to this film.
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bderoes, Champion

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My argument has nothing to do with cast replacements prior to the film being released.

My point is all about potential lost footage between the time the film was released and when it was encoded to the version you saw. You might want to listen to the commentary track / restoration featurettes of either of the restored editions of Lost Horizon (1937) or The Gold Rush (1925), to name 2 off the top of my head. Lost footage is a challenge with old films.

I've done a lot to support your argument for deleting this credit... UNLESS it turns out that IMDb has substantial evidence that Vance was in the film. Your argument continues to deny the possibility that such evidence exists. Unlikely/improbable is not the same as impossible.
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drednm

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There is zero evidence of any lost footage or abridged version or anything else.

Why can't VIVIAN VANCE simply NOT be in the film? How hard is that?

The decision to deny the cast deletion edit was probably made by a computer despite the fact there's not an iota of proof she was ever associated with this 1945 film. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.
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bderoes, Champion

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We don't know that there is no proof.

We only know that we cannot find proof online.

Not every document ever generated is online,

Recall my earlier comment about Lost films listed with Cast on IMDb.
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drednm

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IT AIN'T LOST
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bderoes, Champion

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Never said it was. Only said it was possible.

Now, where is the post regarding this:
I tried to add Inez Palange to the cast for PEG O' MY HEART (1933). They said cannot be verified. I said she's obviously in the film and is in several scenes. Cannot be verified. I posted a screen shot (it's still there) of Palange in a scene with Marion Davies. They still won't emend the cast list.
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Michelle, Official Rep

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Hi drednm and bderoes -

Thanks for all your comments and detailed research.  As there is no conclusive verification that Vivian Vance performed in this role, the credit has now been removed; if we find concrete evidence that she did perform the role we will then reinstate the credit.

Thanks again!
(Edited)
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drednm

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Thanks.