Old film, incorrect credits

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Does IMDb keep records of where cast credits for old films came from?

I've made a minor study of a dancing duo, watching official releases (and unofficial ones when official is not available). In no case are the individual dancers credited onscreen, only their combo name is used.

Yet IMDb has individual dancers listed on each film, often wrong, and often NOT the group name (the onscreen credit).

I'm 98% sure of who is really dancing in each film. But I'd be curious why IMDb has individual names listed at all. Would you still have justifications for why those names are listed?

Let's take the earliest case, their first film: 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0023222/fullcredits
On this page, near the end of the "Cast (in credits order)", we get Steve Condos and Nick Condos, but they didn't receive any onscreen credit in the film. They play a pantomime horse, and dance as a duo in sailor uniforms for about 20 seconds.

I have a copy of the British release (this is a UK film; it's possible that the credits were different on the American release where the film supposedly has a different title, but I thought the original country release was the official one). They are not the only ones to be listed in the "credits" section who were not credited in this print, and conversely, a couple of the names in the "Rest of cast listed alphabetically" section ARE credited onscreen.

Here's my point: even if they were credited on the American release, I'm reasonably certain they would not have been individually named. So what was the source for those names? 

I ask because I've gotten to know the 3 brothers' faces (and dancing styles for 2 of them) pretty well, and I don't think Steve is in this film. At the time, the Condos Brothers consisted of Frank and Nick, and I read somewhere that they were in England around the time this film would have been made. Within a year or so, Frank dropped out of the team, and Steve came in. 

To me, the better way to list them on this film is to use 
The Condos Brothers (uncredited)
and then I could add a trivia item about the possible identities of the brothers.

I'm expending so many pixels for this because about 7 more of their films have bad credits for the individuals. 
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Posted 1 year ago

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Hello,
The IMDb listing says "Horse (as Condos Brothers)" which means that they were both credited on-screen as "Condos Brothers". But the IMDb wants to list individuals, not groups of people. So someone found out who the Condos Brothers were and listed them as individuals

    Steve
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bderoes, Champion

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Steve Crook

As I said above:
  • They are Not credited onscreen.
  • Theirs is not the only wrongly placed Onscreen versus Not-Onscreen credit for this film.
  • There were more than 2 dancing Condos Brothers.
  • The Who is wrong for one of the 2 listed for this film. 
You're telling me how it should have happened. But corrections get submitted to IMDb frequently.

I'm asking if any documentation and/or digital notes exist in the IMDb private archives to substantiate that these things I'm calling errors are actually correct.
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> They are Not credited onscreen.
Where they aren't credited on screen their listing should be changed to include the attribute (uncredited).
Where people only have 'uncredited' listings they will be removed from the listing until or unless they get a credited listing

> I'm asking if any documentation and/or digital notes exist in the IMDb private archives to substantiate that these things I'm calling errors are actually correct.

Yes, the IMDb keeps records. But they don't let mere mortals like us browse them. Although they will often / usually answer specific questions about them.

But it's unlikely that they would keep a copy of a 1932 film that they can refer to to see the on-screen credits

The IMDb can only do what they're told about

    Steve
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Hi,

Unfortunately, it seems impossible to verify online if The Condos Brothers are credited in any way, in any version for The Midshipmaid (1932). At least we know that their group name appear on that movie poster, although this is not considered a valid credit. Meanwhile, if we refer to the Cast/Acting credits guidelines for Group Credits, we can only agree with you when you suggest that « the better way to list them on this film is to use The Condos Brothers (uncredited) ». Anyway, whenever they are credited by their group name, they should be entered that way.

In another vein, have you had the chance to consult this link where the participation of Steve Condos in this movie is questioned?

(Edited)
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Thanks, Stéphane Maltais.

In this age of rapid propagation of information, good and bad, it is difficult to know which information descends from independent sources, and which just copies from other's errors.

For instance, on Google Books I found this, published in 2001.
British Film Catalogue: Two Volume Set - The Fiction Film/The Non ..., Volume 2


The thing that makes it seem independent is the cast list follows neither the movie poster nor the cast list on IMDb. The book is discussed here on the Wikipedia page about the author, and on the page about the book.

The link you post in your last sentence is to my own blog.

I have not been able to find a photograph of Frank Condos online or in print. 
I believe all current credits to Frank Condos and to Harry Condos on IMDb are incorrect. (I mentioned that more films have problems. When multiple brothers appear, it's Nick and Steve, EXCEPT in this film.) 
Some titles have 3 brothers credited, when only 2 are in the film, and no "independent" source claims they ever appeared together professionally.

Perhaps I should compile the entire case, for all the films.

But, again, I ask IMDb staff: do you have a data trail to know when/why you placed Nick and Steve on the credits for The Midshipmaid ('32)?
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Yes we do, the credits were added by a top contributor in 2006 with order numbers of 15 and 16. However we do not know where this contributor got their information from. If you have seen a copy of the film that does not list them as cast members in the end credits then I think you are justified to assume that they were not credited in any other prints and to submit the edits to our staff to be assessed accordingly.

I hope this helps.
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This timeline is intended to justify 2 things: that the brothers in The Midshipmaid (1932) were Frank and Nick, and that the brothers in all subsequent films were Nick and Steve.

Here's what I can determine from the books I cite here:

Condos Brothers Bibliography

The books are noted below by author's initials, as keyed on the bibliography.

I've seen all this information elsewhere too; just wanted to cite some edited, published books.


From [CH]: Frank was born 1906 in Greece; Nick, 1915 Philadelphia; Steve, 12Oct1918 Pittsburgh.

From [BS]: Frank first partnered with a non-family member as professional dancers; they split. In 1929, Frank forms duo Condos Brothers with Nick. In 1930, they earned praise in the Broadway show Earl Carroll's Vanities.  They performed in London and Paris (with the show?)


Note: The Midshipmaid was released in 1932.


Frank splits with Nick in either '33 [CH] or '36 [BS].

[All] Steve partners with Nick as the Condos Brothers.

From [RF], quoting Steve: "I was 14 years old when I went into show business... But I wasn't any good!" Then he describes how he practiced, took the advice of other performers on how to improve. The other live acts he sees/is on the bill with. And then...


[All] Nick and Steve, as Condos Brothers, make films.


On the bibliography you can see which films were mentioned by name. But nowhere does it say that Frank joined them or substituted for one of them. Nor do any of these books mention "Harry," currently credited on several IMDb listings.


But "Harry" is not strictly an Internet invention. On the 1930 Playbill (viewable online) for the Vanities, the 2 brothers are listed as Frank and Harry. Why? Haven't found an answer. But perhaps, since films sometimes list credits with wrong/misspelled names, perhaps even Broadway listed a credit wrong in a Playbill from time to time.


For visual evidence, please see my post Condos Brothers Clips and Screenshots. The screenshots are mostly title cards with Condos credits, but include 2 of the brothers in The Midshipmaid (1932). Enjoy the video clips while they last; some studios are very strict about copyrights.


I'll start submitting edits to IMDb pages now.
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Here are the contribution reference numbers:
180404-174704-379000 2018-04-04 17:47:04 The Time, the Place and the Girl (1946)
Cast -  2 credits corrected
180404-174302-219000 2018-04-04 17:43:02 Song of the Open Road (1944)
Cast -  2 credits corrected, 2 credits deleted
180404-173831-342000 2018-04-04 17:38:31 Pin Up Girl (1944)
Cast -  2 credits corrected, 1 credit deleted
180404-173401-458000 2018-04-04 17:34:01 Hey, Rookie (1944)
Cast -  1 credit corrected, 1 credit deleted
180404-173016-419000 2018-04-04 17:30:16 Moon Over Miami (1941)
Cast -  2 credits corrected
180404-172551-020000 2018-04-04 17:25:51 In the Navy (1941)
Cast -  2 credits corrected, 1 credit deleted
180404-171839-176000 2018-04-04 17:18:39 The Broadway Buckaroo (1939)
Cast -  1 credit corrected, 1 credit deleted
180404-171154-243000 2018-04-04 17:11:54 The Midshipmaid (1932)
Cast -  15 credits corrected
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Will, Employee
Hi, Will.
I submitted the corrections last Wednesday, and checked them on Friday.
Only 1 was fully executed (The Midshipmaid ('32)).
All others were partially executed, and that remains true when I check again today.

There's a definite pattern: Harry Condos has not been removed, in most cases depriving Steve Condos of his rightful credit, in 3 cases he's the "3rd brother", when they always danced as a duo. (Harry Condos did not exist. I can go into a more detailed explanation if needed.)

Another pattern: most of Harry's credits now lie "below the line" (onscreen vs. uncredited) while Nick's are among the onscreen. 

My questions for you:
  1. Can you check on whether these submissions are still open, and someone is researching them, or if they are considered complete? The Contribution History does not tell me that for this type of submission,
  2. Should I submit new Edits to get things cleaned up? I can strengthen the explanation for removing Harry.
  3. Is there a problem having 2 people at the same location in the onscreen credits? (They were never credited onscreen individually, but I'm under the impression that individuals are preferred instead of a group credit.) I'm pretty sure I saw a multi-person entry at the same location while I was editing; I'm just trying to figure out why these leftover Harry credits are usually "below the line". Maybe that's just where they were before Nick was correctly installed.
  4. Long-term, once the credits have been fully corrected, how do we prevent submissions trying to change these back? Lots of websites and some books have relied upon IMDb for the Condos credits, and therefore have listed the old, wrong credits. I'm willing to submit trivia items on each film explaining what the credit used to be and why it was changed. Is there something more that should be done?
Thanks in advance!  The incomplete contributions are these:
180404-174704-379000 2018-04-04 17:47:04 The Time, the Place and the Girl (1946)
180404-174302-219000 2018-04-04 17:43:02 Song of the Open Road (1944)
180404-173831-342000 2018-04-04 17:38:31 Pin Up Girl (1944)
180404-173401-458000 2018-04-04 17:34:01 Hey, Rookie (1944)
180404-173016-419000 2018-04-04 17:30:16 Moon Over Miami (1941)
180404-172551-020000 2018-04-04 17:25:51 In the Navy (1941)
180404-171839-176000 2018-04-04 17:18:39 The Broadway Buckaroo (1939)
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Hi bderoes,

No those submissions are closed. I've just removed Harry from the titles you submitted the changes to which only leaves him with Hooray for Hollywood on his page. If they are credited (as The Condos Brothers) on screen then ideally you should give them separate order numbers one after the other (alphabetically probably makes the most sense) with the correct (as The Condos Brothers) attribute.

Now that the credits have been removed from Harry's page please can you try and resubmit any outstanding data with a comment explaining why you are making the edits and let me know which data is still incorrectly assigned and I can look at getting it fixed and locked down internally?

Thanks,
Will 
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Thanks, Will!
I'm in the process of checking through everything. I had not noticed that documentary Hooray For Hollywood ('82) before; I found a copy and should have it on Saturday, so I can determine the correct brother (most likely Steve).

Regarding the separate order numbers for each brother: that sometimes means I'd also need to submit corrections to other cast members to open a space for Steve? 
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Yes please.
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Here they are:

Contribution #180412-162738-328000  for In the Navy (1941)
Contribution #180412-164601-807000  for Moon Over Miami (1941)
Contribution #180412-165246-589000  for Pin Up Girl (1944)
Contribution #180412-165904-024000  for The Time, the Place and the Girl (1946)
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OK, Will, regarding Hooray for Hollywood (1982) two Condos Brothers credits (Frank and Harry).

The film is a compilation of clips with narration. The film has no written credits for any  performers in the clips. But the narrator names some faces and films as they're onscreen.

I took copious notes, and will submit some additional cast and already did some extra Connections. (I'll save the cast additions until I hear from you.)

But here's the problem: when the narrator says these are the Condos Brothers, he's completely mis-identifying the dancers onscreen. What's showing is the Lullaby of Broadway number from Gold Diggers of 1935, and we're watching a trio of very good tappers, but none of them is a Condos Brother. He does NOT mention individual names.

In my correspondence with one of the authors I cite, Rusty Frank told me who she thinks they are, and from whom she got that info. (She brought up a YouTube clip of this dance number as one of the many mis-identified bits on the internet about Condos Brothers.) I'd be happy to submit a trivia item, but what do we do with the credits? Ideas:
  1. Just delete both brothers from the cast. Even though they're mentioned, they're not in the film. And I'll do a trivia item.
  2. Give a single credit to The Condos Brothers, with the attribute that they do not appear onscreen?
  3. ?
Thanks for all your help!

[Edited to add:]
I'm wondering about all those cast credits that say "Himself" and "Herself". A lot of those people were only appearing in clips from other films where they played a character. Is that still considered "self"? (I read the submission guidelines, but didn't find my answer.)

To me, "self" credit is appropriate when the archive footage is newsreel, or they're playing themself in the original film. But I wouldn't know what to put in the character slot for archive footage where they play a character.
(Edited)
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Hi bderoes,

Thanks, those submissions were accepted but may take a little while to be reflected on the site.

These are some awkward cases! If they do not appear at all in the title and they are only incorrectly referred to by the narrator with no on screen credit then you definitely shouldn't credit them on the title. A trivia item would be the best place to list this information.

In this case however none of these performers shouldn't be listed as filmography credits, instead these should all be movie connections instead linking to the original films, especially as these performers did not receive an on screen credit in this title. Please see the archive footage guide.

The "movielink" rule
If someone's appearance is uncredited and covered by a movielink entry (e.g., footage from a film is recycled as a "prologue" or flashback in a sequel or subsequent film in a series) it does not qualify as "archive footage."

I hope this helps. Let me know if you need any further assistance.
(Edited)
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Hi, Will.

I'm seeing all the Steve Condos changes live already! This is major progress! Not everything is done, though.

Item 1:
On Frank Condos page, he has a mini-bio that I can't find a way to edit. It says:
Frank Condos was born on February 26, 1906 in Kalamata, Greece as Dionisius Firtes Kontas. He is an actor, known for Moon Over Miami (1941). See full bio »
The problem is that Moon Over Miami is not his film, and hasn't shown on his filmography for more than a week now. 

When I'm on his bio page, and hit the Edit button, and try to Correct/Delete the Biography, it says "No existing data". 

How do I correct the mini-bio to refer to his 1 actual credit?

Item 2:
On the Condos Brothers page, I feel that someone seeing their credit on a film will now see nothing (once I clean up the final credit that wasn't implemented as requested, see item3). I'm planning to update the Soundtracks on all their films, and thought it would be nice if, in each one that has brotherS, that I list the Soundtrack credit as (linked) Condos Brothers, namely (linked) Nick and Steve. Does that seem ok?

Item 3:
You mentioned something a while ago about "locking down" these changes. Have you done that in all cases now? If so, I'll need your help to fix Song of the Open Road ('44). As mentioned in Item2, this wasn't implemented as requested; the editor decided to keep the group in the onscreen credits section, and list the 2 brothers in the uncredited section. I suspect that happened because I tried to add them both in the same position. So I should do another contribution to delete that and move credits to the correct place?

Item 4:
Once we resolve the Hooray for Hollywood credit, Harry Condos will be an empty actor. Will that stay on IMDb, or be removed? Should I make a trivia item for that name, or not bother?

Item 5:
This is not about the Condos Brothers, but about the 100 other people appearing in  Hooray for Hollywood (1982), and correctly identified by the narrator: No credit for archive footage? This is a That's Entertainment-style clip-fest, not a movie-link situation (no narrative is being served in a flashback), and as a film buff I was interested to find this title. But if it hadn't been listed on a star's credits, I never would have. My interpretation of the guidelines (and what you said above) is that none of these 100 people should get a credit.

I thought you were going to come back and say something like "we credit archive footage as Him/Herself to not replicate performance credit under Movies, but secure it under Documentaries." Instead it sounds like we should remove 50 credits instead of adding 50 (yeah, only about half the actors are credited, and I have the contribution to add them all ready to submit).

Does listing an actor (linked) on a Title Trivia item create a corresponding Trivia item on their name page? 

It strikes me this is a Fahrenheit 451 (1966) situation, where the narrator tells you the credits (there is no reading in their world).

Thanks for all your help!
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Hi bderoes,

1. This is the automatically generated mini-bio, I've jogged the page internally which should update this field but if you can provide a better mini-bio given your knowledge of the individual then please do so.

2. Aren't the Condos Brothers a dance troupe though? If so that shouldn't qualify as a soundtrack item anyway. If the Condos Brothers are being credited individually then it makes no sense for there to be an additional "The Condos Brothers page" - this should be removed once "The Song of the Road" has been credited to the correct brothers pages. Please let me know once it is empty.

3. Yes please resubmit those edits and please include a link to this GS thread in each modification when doing so to help the data editors understand the case. Once everything is sorted and you have confirmed that the pages are now correct I will take some internal steps to prevent further changes but once everything has been correctly attributed.

4. I've now removed the Harry Condos name page as there are no valid credits on his page.

5. If none of the performers are credited in the end credits and the footage is just reused from other titles then those credits aren't eligible on those actor/actresses pages as it is just duplicated work. A movie connection should link the films instead. This is quite a unique case, you are welcome to submit a Bio: Trivia item to the attached name pages in this one case so that the information can still be captured on the name pages.

Regards,
Will
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Hi, Will. Thanks for the feedback.

2. FYI: Dancing is frequently included in Soundtrack items. Here's one that I'll be altering shortly:
Delightfully Dangerous 
(1944) (uncredited) 
Written by Walter Kent 
Performed by Sammy Kaye and His Orchestra 
Danced by The Condos Brothers 
That's why I thought Bill Robinson should have a credit on In Old Kentucky ('35) (discussed on a different thread), and maybe, if he hums those tunes (I'll have to look at the footage again), then he'll count as a Soundtrack performer too.

The rest of this is about Item 5:
Just to clarify: I'm talking about the entire cast of  Hooray for Hollywood (1982), except the narrator. 

I'm not inclined to submit 100 Bio:trivia items for one film, sorry. And most of the time, the films clipped are not identified verbally. (Six or seven are identified onscreen at the end, but there must be at least 50 films edited into HfH.)

If the policy really says verbal credits are insufficient, then I really strongly disagree with the policy. 

I just rechecked the dvd of Fahrenheit 451 (1966), and the only written onscreen credit (opening or end) it has is that's it was made at Pinewood Studios. But IMDb has cast credits for this film, and they're listed as onscreen credits because a narrator says them at the beginning of the film.

That's Entertainment! (1974) is made up almost entirely of archive footage, and most of that is clips of films where the actors already received credit for acting in that role. For instance, 
Sidney Toler...Clip from 'Speak Easily' (archive footage) (uncredited)
then among his Actor: Movie credits:
Speak Easily (1932)
Stage Director
and among his Archive Footage credits:
That's Entertainment! (Documentary) (1974)
Clip from 'Speak Easily' (uncredited)
Are you telling me that this Archive Footage credit is now against IMDb policy because it's duplicate work? This is the kind of credit I'm talking about for the cast of  Hooray for Hollywood (1982), whether credited or uncredited.


Again, thanks for your ongoing support. I'll get busy on finishing the Condos credits now. And I hope that something I've written this time will make you encourage me to submit the additional 46 credits I compiled for Hooray for Hollywood (1982).
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Hi bderoes,

That is against policy and shouldn't be added to the soundtrack section.

I can only tell you our policies and the way we should list the data on IMDb to avoid duplicating performances on actor/actress's name pages. If you find any data that doesn't conform to these policies then feel free to submit an update to our data editors to amend it.

Thank you for your continued interest in fixing the associated data for The Condos Brothers.

Regards,
Will
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Hello, Will.

You asked me to report back when pages were ready to be locked down. 

Unfortunately, some things have been undone already.

On Thursday morning I submitted the edit to Song of the Open Road to eliminate the group credit for Condos Bros and move up the individuals. Contribution #180419-125750-738000

Saturday morning I refreshed the group Condos Brothers page
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1794692/
and someone has instead
  • reinstated two of their films to the group, moving Nick & Steve down to uncredited on those films (and removed the attribute "as Condos Brothers"). The only 2 films added back to the group (so far) are the other 2 films on the "known for" automated biography item. Fortunately, so far, they have not altered the individuals (nor reinstated Frank/Harry).
  • changed the name of the group to Condos Brothers (instead of The CB). If we're keeping the group, that's actually a good thing; the majority of their credits are that way.
  • "repaired" the group's trivia item listing the brothers (in a bad way) to list Harry Condos. It was broken in the sense that when Harry's name record was deleted from IMDb last week, it was displaying as nm0174433. So whoever is doing these changes knows it was Harry there. THAT worries me.
Can you tell me what's going on? Is this a data editor taking initiative, or another contributor? This is spooky and frustrating.

I thought part of the goal was to get rid of the group credit. I don't mind if the goal is to keep the group, but I do mind the loss of the attribute "as Condos Bothers" (or The CB, when that's how it was onscreen, seldom) which has value, to easily distinguish on an individual page when they danced as brothers or alone.

Here's hoping I'll hear from you soon.
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Hi bderoes,

No this was submitted by another contributor. I've contacted them now and removed the group page. Please can you make the edits to repair the individual credits and let me know once completed?

Regards,
Will
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Hi, Will: 3 items here.

Item^1:
Just submitted:
Contribution #180423-094655-785000 Pin Up Girl (1944)
Contribution #180423-095344-641000 Song of the Open Road (1944)
Contribution #180423-095734-853000 In the Navy (1941)
Contribution #180423-103315-529000 Hey, Rookie (1944) tweaked the attributes

Item^2:
I would feel more secure if you could lockdown the other films now; I checked each brother and each film just now to make sure their credits appear properly. 
I assume that by lockdown we mean protect just the 2 credits for the Condos Brothers. I did not look beyond them on the film credits.
Their films are:
1. Midshipmaid Gob (1932) Frank & Nick, uncredited
4. Wake Up and Live (1937) Nick & Steve *were correct without editing
5. Happy Landing (1938)  Nick & Steve *were correct without editing
8. Moon Over Miami (1941) Nick & Steve 
13. The Time, the Place and the Girl (1946) Nick & Steve 

Waiting for today's edits.
7. In the Navy (1941) Nick & Steve 
10. Hey, Rookie (1944) Nick & Steve 
11. Pin Up Girl (1944) Nick & Steve
12. Song of the Open Road (1944) Nick & Steve 

(In case you're wondering, the numbers missing in sequence are solo films.)

Item^3:
The auto-bio for Frank Condos has still not reset. You reported triggering the reset on Apr. 19. [Edited to add:] In case it's related, I just noticed that the film Moon Over Miami, which shouldn't appear in his bio, also appears in the On Prime Video section down in the right column. Maybe there is extra data on his page for that which prevents the reset?

Thanks again for your help.
(Edited)
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Hi bderoes,

I've made some internal changes to those titles now. I've taken a look at Frank Condos again and it looks like there is an underlying bug. I've cut a ticket now for our tech teams to investigate.

Regards,
Will
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Hi Will, 
I see my 4 contributions submitted Monday have indeed moved the brothers up to credited status, and installed the requested attributes. What a journey this has been!

When you say "internal changes to those titles", do you mean all 9 titles listed above, and those changes are intended to protect the Frank/Nick and Nick/Steve credits?

Thanks for following up on Frank's bio.

Here's another question: can we get some photos attached to Nick's name page?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027115/mediaviewer/rm2711243008
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027115/mediaviewer/rm1486506240
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027495/mediaviewer/rm2655804928
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0029744/mediaviewer/rm4069743616 (Nick is on the left, Steve on the right)
The last one should also go to Steve's name page.

If I'm able to get a better still from that film, and crop into 2 separate shots, can I submit those as posters for their name pages?

Now I'll start crafting trivia for their name pages. If I want an item to appear on all 3 pages, do I need to submit it 3 times, or will the links within the text automatically attach it to all 3 people?

Again, thank you SO much for your help in this process.
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Hi bderoes,

No problem! Yes on those 9 titles. You can amend those links yourself, if you go to the edit tags option you can submit a change for those, however unfortunately they won't appear on Nick's name page as there is no associated IMDbPro account.

You would need to enter the trivia on all 3 of the pages for it to appear on all 3.

Regards,
Will