I've made a minor study of a dancing duo, watching official releases (and unofficial ones when official is not available). In no case are the individual dancers credited onscreen, only their combo name is used.
Yet IMDb has individual dancers listed on each film, often wrong, and often NOT the group name (the onscreen credit).
I'm 98% sure of who is really dancing in each film. But I'd be curious why IMDb has individual names listed at all. Would you still have justifications for why those names are listed?
Let's take the earliest case, their first film:
On this page, near the end of the "Cast (in credits order)", we get Steve Condos and Nick Condos, but they didn't receive any onscreen credit in the film. They play a pantomime horse, and dance as a duo in sailor uniforms for about 20 seconds.
I have a copy of the British release (this is a UK film; it's possible that the credits were different on the American release where the film supposedly has a different title, but I thought the original country release was the official one). They are not the only ones to be listed in the "credits" section who were not credited in this print, and conversely, a couple of the names in the "Rest of cast listed alphabetically" section ARE credited onscreen.
Here's my point: even if they were credited on the American release, I'm reasonably certain they would not have been individually named. So what was the source for those names?
I ask because I've gotten to know the 3 brothers' faces (and dancing styles for 2 of them) pretty well, and I don't think Steve is in this film. At the time, the Condos Brothers consisted of Frank and Nick, and I read somewhere that they were in England around the time this film would have been made. Within a year or so, Frank dropped out of the team, and Steve came in.
To me, the better way to list them on this film is to use
The Condos Brothers (uncredited)
and then I could add a trivia item about the possible identities of the brothers.
I'm expending so many pixels for this because about 7 more of their films have bad credits for the individuals.
The IMDb listing says "Horse (as Condos Brothers)" which means that they were both credited on-screen as "Condos Brothers". But the IMDb wants to list individuals, not groups of people. So someone found out who the Condos Brothers were and listed them as individuals
This timeline is intended to justify 2 things: that the brothers in The Midshipmaid (1932) were Frank and Nick, and that the brothers in all subsequent films were Nick and Steve.
Here's what I can determine from the books I cite here:
The books are noted below by author's initials, as keyed on the bibliography.
I've seen all this information elsewhere too; just wanted to cite some edited, published books.
From [CH]: Frank was born 1906 in Greece; Nick, 1915 Philadelphia; Steve, 12Oct1918 Pittsburgh.
From [BS]: Frank first partnered with a non-family member as professional dancers; they split. In 1929, Frank forms duo Condos Brothers with Nick. In 1930, they earned praise in the Broadway show Earl Carroll's Vanities. They performed in London and Paris (with the show?)
Note: The Midshipmaid was released in 1932.
Frank splits with Nick in either '33 [CH] or '36 [BS].
[All] Steve partners with Nick as the Condos Brothers.
From [RF], quoting Steve: "I was 14 years old when I went into show business... But I wasn't any good!" Then he describes how he practiced, took the advice of other performers on how to improve. The other live acts he sees/is on the bill with. And then...
[All] Nick and Steve, as Condos Brothers, make films.
On the bibliography you can see which films were mentioned by name. But nowhere does it say that Frank joined them or substituted for one of them. Nor do any of these books mention "Harry," currently credited on several IMDb listings.
But "Harry" is not strictly an Internet invention. On the 1930 Playbill (viewable online) for the Vanities, the 2 brothers are listed as Frank and Harry. Why? Haven't found an answer. But perhaps, since films sometimes list credits with wrong/misspelled names, perhaps even Broadway listed a credit wrong in a Playbill from time to time.
For visual evidence, please see my post Condos Brothers Clips and Screenshots. The screenshots are mostly title cards with Condos credits, but include 2 of the brothers in The Midshipmaid (1932). Enjoy the video clips while they last; some studios are very strict about copyrights.
I'll start submitting edits to IMDb pages now.
No those submissions are closed. I've just removed Harry from the titles you submitted the changes to which only leaves him with Hooray for Hollywood on his page. If they are credited (as The Condos Brothers) on screen then ideally you should give them separate order numbers one after the other (alphabetically probably makes the most sense) with the correct (as The Condos Brothers) attribute.
Now that the credits have been removed from Harry's page please can you try and resubmit any outstanding data with a comment explaining why you are making the edits and let me know which data is still incorrectly assigned and I can look at getting it fixed and locked down internally?
1. This is the automatically generated mini-bio, I've jogged the page internally which should update this field but if you can provide a better mini-bio given your knowledge of the individual then please do so.
2. Aren't the Condos Brothers a dance troupe though? If so that shouldn't qualify as a soundtrack item anyway. If the Condos Brothers are being credited individually then it makes no sense for there to be an additional "The Condos Brothers page" - this should be removed once "The Song of the Road" has been credited to the correct brothers pages. Please let me know once it is empty.
3. Yes please resubmit those edits and please include a link to this GS thread in each modification when doing so to help the data editors understand the case. Once everything is sorted and you have confirmed that the pages are now correct I will take some internal steps to prevent further changes but once everything has been correctly attributed.
4. I've now removed the Harry Condos name page as there are no valid credits on his page.
5. If none of the performers are credited in the end credits and the footage is just reused from other titles then those credits aren't eligible on those actor/actresses pages as it is just duplicated work. A movie connection should link the films instead. This is quite a unique case, you are welcome to submit a Bio: Trivia item to the attached name pages in this one case so that the information can still be captured on the name pages.
2. FYI: Dancing is frequently included in Soundtrack items. Here's one that I'll be altering shortly:
Delightfully DangerousThat's why I thought Bill Robinson should have a credit on In Old Kentucky ('35) (discussed on a different thread), and maybe, if he hums those tunes (I'll have to look at the footage again), then he'll count as a Soundtrack performer too.
Written by Walter Kent
Performed by Sammy Kaye and His Orchestra
Danced by The Condos Brothers
The rest of this is about Item 5:
Just to clarify: I'm talking about the entire cast of Hooray for Hollywood (1982), except the narrator.
I'm not inclined to submit 100 Bio:trivia items for one film, sorry. And most of the time, the films clipped are not identified verbally. (Six or seven are identified onscreen at the end, but there must be at least 50 films edited into HfH.)
If the policy really says verbal credits are insufficient, then I really strongly disagree with the policy.
I just rechecked the dvd of Fahrenheit 451 (1966), and the only written onscreen credit (opening or end) it has is that's it was made at Pinewood Studios. But IMDb has cast credits for this film, and they're listed as onscreen credits because a narrator says them at the beginning of the film.
That's Entertainment! (1974) is made up almost entirely of archive footage, and most of that is clips of films where the actors already received credit for acting in that role. For instance,
Sidney Toler...Clip from 'Speak Easily' (archive footage) (uncredited)then among his Actor: Movie credits:
Speak Easily (1932)and among his Archive Footage credits:
That's Entertainment! (Documentary) (1974)Are you telling me that this Archive Footage credit is now against IMDb policy because it's duplicate work? This is the kind of credit I'm talking about for the cast of Hooray for Hollywood (1982), whether credited or uncredited.
Clip from 'Speak Easily' (uncredited)
Again, thanks for your ongoing support. I'll get busy on finishing the Condos credits now. And I hope that something I've written this time will make you encourage me to submit the additional 46 credits I compiled for Hooray for Hollywood (1982).
That is against policy and shouldn't be added to the soundtrack section.
I can only tell you our policies and the way we should list the data on IMDb to avoid duplicating performances on actor/actress's name pages. If you find any data that doesn't conform to these policies then feel free to submit an update to our data editors to amend it.
Thank you for your continued interest in fixing the associated data for The Condos Brothers.
You asked me to report back when pages were ready to be locked down.
Unfortunately, some things have been undone already.
On Thursday morning I submitted the edit to Song of the Open Road to eliminate the group credit for Condos Bros and move up the individuals. Contribution #180419-125750-738000
Saturday morning I refreshed the group Condos Brothers page
and someone has instead
- reinstated two of their films to the group, moving Nick & Steve down to uncredited on those films (and removed the attribute "as Condos Brothers"). The only 2 films added back to the group (so far) are the other 2 films on the "known for" automated biography item. Fortunately, so far, they have not altered the individuals (nor reinstated Frank/Harry).
- changed the name of the group to Condos Brothers (instead of The CB). If we're keeping the group, that's actually a good thing; the majority of their credits are that way.
- "repaired" the group's trivia item listing the brothers (in a bad way) to list Harry Condos. It was broken in the sense that when Harry's name record was deleted from IMDb last week, it was displaying as nm0174433. So whoever is doing these changes knows it was Harry there. THAT worries me.
I thought part of the goal was to get rid of the group credit. I don't mind if the goal is to keep the group, but I do mind the loss of the attribute "as Condos Bothers" (or The CB, when that's how it was onscreen, seldom) which has value, to easily distinguish on an individual page when they danced as brothers or alone.
Here's hoping I'll hear from you soon.
Contribution #180423-094655-785000 Pin Up Girl (1944)
Contribution #180423-095344-641000 Song of the Open Road (1944)
Contribution #180423-095734-853000 In the Navy (1941)
Contribution #180423-103315-529000 Hey, Rookie (1944) tweaked the attributes
I would feel more secure if you could lockdown the other films now; I checked each brother and each film just now to make sure their credits appear properly.
I assume that by lockdown we mean protect just the 2 credits for the Condos Brothers. I did not look beyond them on the film credits.
Their films are:
1. Midshipmaid Gob (1932) Frank & Nick, uncredited
4. Wake Up and Live (1937) Nick & Steve *were correct without editing
5. Happy Landing (1938) Nick & Steve *were correct without editing
8. Moon Over Miami (1941) Nick & Steve
13. The Time, the Place and the Girl (1946) Nick & Steve
Waiting for today's edits.
7. In the Navy (1941) Nick & Steve
10. Hey, Rookie (1944) Nick & Steve
11. Pin Up Girl (1944) Nick & Steve
12. Song of the Open Road (1944) Nick & Steve
(In case you're wondering, the numbers missing in sequence are solo films.)
The auto-bio for Frank Condos has still not reset. You reported triggering the reset on Apr. 19. [Edited to add:] In case it's related, I just noticed that the film Moon Over Miami, which shouldn't appear in his bio, also appears in the On Prime Video section down in the right column. Maybe there is extra data on his page for that which prevents the reset?
Thanks again for your help.
I see my 4 contributions submitted Monday have indeed moved the brothers up to credited status, and installed the requested attributes. What a journey this has been!
When you say "internal changes to those titles", do you mean all 9 titles listed above, and those changes are intended to protect the Frank/Nick and Nick/Steve credits?
Thanks for following up on Frank's bio.
Here's another question: can we get some photos attached to Nick's name page?
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0029744/mediaviewer/rm4069743616 (Nick is on the left, Steve on the right)
The last one should also go to Steve's name page.
If I'm able to get a better still from that film, and crop into 2 separate shots, can I submit those as posters for their name pages?
Now I'll start crafting trivia for their name pages. If I want an item to appear on all 3 pages, do I need to submit it 3 times, or will the links within the text automatically attach it to all 3 people?
Again, thank you SO much for your help in this process.
No problem! Yes on those 9 titles. You can amend those links yourself, if you go to the edit tags option you can submit a change for those, however unfortunately they won't appear on Nick's name page as there is no associated IMDbPro account.
You would need to enter the trivia on all 3 of the pages for it to appear on all 3.