How do I delete these persons?

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Hi. For some reason I can't delete the following people from Sunset Beach's full cast and crew list.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1024436/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Choppy Guilotte
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1212145/?ref_=nv_sr_1 Ryan Christopher Keys
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0759613/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 Francine Sama
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0859038/?ref_=nv_sr_1#actress Jodi Thomas

What these four people have in common is that they are listed undder "unknown episodes" which makes it impossible to delete them since they are not listed under a specific episode. However, when I list them under a specific episode and then delete them once they have been accepted they "bounce back" to being listed under unknown episodes. How do I resolve this?

I know they do not appear in the show.




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Andreas Palmström

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Posted 4 months ago

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Andreas, how would you know that they are not in the episode. What evidence can you supply?
Thanks
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Andreas Palmström

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Ed Jones: The evidence is simply that I know the show as good as my own pocket and I have seen every episode and I know that they do not appear.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Also please provide the episode tt numbers
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Andreas Palmström

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As I wrote in my first post they are not listed under any specific episode. They are listed under "unknown episodes", which is not possible to do any more but it was possible before.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Andreas these are individuals that had a guest appearances. They could prove that they were on the show, just not what specific episode that they were involved with.
You cannot possibly know for a certainty that they did not work on one individual episode.
You cannot possibly remember the over 2000 listings for guests on the show.

It is not Possible
No one has that good a memory.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Also what are you going to do next. Ask for the uncredited, which number around 500 or so to be deleted?
Seriously.
No wonder they are refused. You cannot with certainty prove your claim.
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Andreas Palmström

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Ed Jones: You know that Imdb is a user-generated site? That is, anyone can add anyone as an actor/actress to a show and in 99,99% it gets accepted. And as i said before it's NOT possible to add a cast member to a show nowadays without adding it to a specific episode. I know for a FACT they did not appear since I have still pictures of ALL guest actors in the show and I KNOW they were not among them. It was just a few years ago I watched the whole series all over again just to catch all guest actors.
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Andreas Palmström

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Of couse not. I myself have added a lot of uncredited actors to the show who ACTUALLY were there and I'm working on finding out ALL of the uncredited guest actors so that I can list them since SB were the only show not to credit guest actors. But these four were not among them.
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Andreas Palmström

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It has in all the other credits I've removed. There it has simply been enough that i have written "not in this episode" and credit has gotten deleted. What differs these four is that they are listed under "unknown episodes" and therefore it's harder to delete since they automatically bounce back to "unknown episodes" when it gets deleted from a specific episode. It's not that the request for deletion has been rejected because it hasn't.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Deletions need proof. Not your visual confirmation.
If you have been making submissions and deletions using this formula, than your submissions as a whole should be suspect.
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Andreas Palmström

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Appearenty it's enough proof for the Imdb staff since their names did not appear on screen. Then it's up to those who claim that they were in the show to proof that.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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That's why they are there.
They have proved that they were attached by way of pay stubs. This is an acceptable form of proof.
It however does not show the specific episode.
So their credited episode is unknown.
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Andreas Palmström

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No. they have not. They have been added by a random user just like 99% of the material on Imdb. Imdb is as I said, user-generated. There is a reason to why Imdb doesn't count as a reliable source on wikipedia and its simply not possible to add a credit to series without adding it to an episode number. You joined August 2018 so of course you don't know this but we do who have been here a bit longer.

You can read more about that here:

https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/unknown-episodes

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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A test of your knowledge
Name these 5 People?
Phil Silvers PictureLouise Fletcher PictureRobert Blake in Good Bad Boys 1940
Natalie Wood in The Green Promise 1949Judy Garland in Little Nellie Kelly 1940
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Andreas Palmström

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I can't see what that has to do with topic (even if the names are visible of the first two if you hold the mouse over it). The topic is cast members from Sunset Beach, not actors/actresses over all.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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So name  the last 3.
You can't, I'll wager
If you can't name the last three than that proves that your photo knowledge skills are not good enough.
The first of the last 3 was called Spanky and the last was Dorothy in their best known for roles.
But that probably means nothing to you.
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Andreas Palmström

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Robert Blake, Natalie Wood and Judy Garland. More questions?

Another thing is that the character names for the people in topic are never mentioned once. I'm happy to hand over my whole file of both the pictures and the episodes so you can check out for yourself.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I won't do any good. Someone in the staff with a vast knowledge in facial recognition would have to watch the whole series. They will not do that. You cannot prove they were not in the show. Your stills do not cover every second of every episode. That would require your photo file to be in the millions of captures. You do not have the required evidence. Can't you see this.
If those 4 actors/actresses were on screen for less than 5 seconds, would you have caught it.
NO.
(Edited)
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Andreas Palmström

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I cought all the guest actors who had any lines. That's enough and their character names are never mentioned either. That's evidence enough. I can add Brad Pitt to an episode and it would be up to you to proof that he never appeared in the show with your reasoning.
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Andreas Palmström

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And if you check Imdbs guidelines it says:

"If the role does not exist (i.e. the actor/character does not appear at any point in the title), then please submit a deletion, but only if you are absolutely certain that the credit is incorrect"

Nothing about stone-secure evidence. You just need to be certain:

https://help.imdb.com/article/contribution/contribution-information/correcting-existing-data/GPFQGX9...#

.

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Eboy

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There are two (main) things people need to check when dealing with delete requests:
1) Does the person appear in the episode (”background” also counts) ?
2) Is the person credited in the episode, even when she/he does not actually appear in it (in these cases the credit should still be listed with ”(credit only)” attibute).

The problem with this series seems to be that these actors have ”unknown episodes” associated with them, which means that we don’t know the actual episodes where they appear (well, or not). Since there seems to be 755+ episodes, this situation is a tricky one.
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Andreas Palmström

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Eboy: Thank you for not being passive agressive (unlike some people.

1. Of course they can be in the background. I only list those who had lines. The thing is though that their character names are never mentioned either.

2. No. No guest actors are credited (with a few exceptions like Barbara Mandrell, Jack Wagner and Steven Vincent Leigh). That's why SB has so many actors that are "unknown" and can only be recognizeble from another show.

The "unknown episodes"-thing is because in the past it was possible to add credits to a show without including the episode number, a lots of shows have it like this, not only SB. That's not possible anymore but it doesn't take away the problems with those who already have been listed in such ways. I have checked all the episodes though and the persons do not appear.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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E-Boy just said the same thing I did already.
You will get no deletions.
You may request a shift to uncredited.
But you'll get no deletions.
They have been approved by staff already for inclusion.
(Edited)
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Andreas Palmström

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No, Eboy did not say the same thing. You claim that they have proofed that they were in the show which they haven't. It's clearly that you don't understand how Imdb works or have worked. Yes, Imdb staff have approved them but they would approve Brad Pitt if I included him aswell. All other credits I have deleted have also been approved once.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Not going to repeat myself any further.
You cannot prove your submission.
Will no longer reply.
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Andreas Palmström

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Good because you don't contribute with anything anyway. Let's hope someone from the staff comes here.
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Eboy

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With TV series, the ”core” cast & crew is added first (it varies a lot which names are listed initially), and the actual episodes after that. Sometimes only selected episodes (or selected cast & crew are listed to those episodes) are listed, so some names then appear as ”unknown episodes” (since they’re not ”tied” to any of the episodes).


Example: 100 names are added to the series when it’s first submitted/approved/added to IMDb. Now someone adds one episode to the series and adds one name to that episode. After that, 99 names are with ”unknown episodes”.


Not sure the history with SB, though.
(Edited)
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Andreas Palmström

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Eboy: I don't know how it works with other shows but in SBs case the "main" cast are listed first just like you said after how many episodes they did appear in. Ex: Clive Robertson is listed first. He appeared in 570 episodes of 755. After that it's Susan Ward with 551 episodes and then it goes on until David Andriole who is the first uncredited actor listed, in 96 episodes and then it continues after how many episodes they appeared in. We start with the recurring cast who appeared in all three seasons. If two people appeared in the same amount of episodes the person who appeared first is listed first.

When it comes the the "unknown episodes" these are people who were added before it was mandatory to include an episode number. I can add them to a specific episode number and then they appear in the same way as the other. Example: I add Choppy Guilotte to episode 755. Then he will be listed pretty far down as he only appeared in one episode in season 3 as uncredited but if I delete him from episode 755, he automatically "bounce back" to be listed in unknown episodes but if I instead delete Kevin Otto from episode 755 he disappeares completely from the cast list since he did not appear in "unknown episodes" at first.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Why have you not corrected these?

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Andreas Palmström

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But you are missing the point. They have not been proved. If they had, Staff wouldn't accept the deletions. These four are not different. If you only knew how much error I've found in this show during the years. Ex, someone had added the actor Lance Gutterman as a major character named Rufus in every single episode. Despite that there were no rufus in the entire show. It took several months to delete all those credits. I've added guest actors to the show. Not a single time I have been forced to prove that they were there.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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That is because of your submission accuracy rating. They trust your judgement at this time. Overstep it and it counts against your accuracy rating. I have left an E-mail for one of the 4 to alert them of what you are attempting to do. We'll see if they respond. Three times I have reached out to people in question regarding deletions of credits. Your additions are a great and appreciated thing. But removal of credits require a higher level of proof. And if there is on file actual corroboration on those submissions and you are trying to remove them than it makes you look bad.
Avoid looking bad.
Don't submit deletions on a perceived all knowing assumption based on your sight alone.
I have rewatched several Movies and TV programs because after watching it and checking the database to find out an actor had a very small part in the production that I missed. You can't catch everything.
It is not possible.
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Andreas Palmström

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Exactly. So if they trust my judgment they trust everybody elses judgment aswell, including the one who added them from the beginning. I hope they respond. If they do you can ask them either to respond here or contact me on Facebook. If they can prove me wrong I'll be happy to admit that. But it's not just my sight. It's also my hearing. Not a single time was their character names mentioned. Ok, there was one Louis (different spelling but was not played by him). Sure, it can maybe be difficult if they are not zoomed in but if the character names are not mentioned either it says a lot.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Look when the actor HAS a character name but it does not get mentioned in the dialog is irrelevant.













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Andreas Palmström

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I don't think it is. It's exactly like the character Rufus I mentioned earlier. Just because someone has added an actor with a character name it doesn't mean that the submission is correct. Esp when neither the actor is spotted or the name is mentioned.
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Andreas Palmström

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What's there to correct? He appeared in the show and his name appeared on screen. (Btw Shouldn't you stop reply?)

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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He was credited as Jason Winston George on all episodes.
Those need to be corrected
If you are supposedly into correctness.
(Edited)
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Andreas Palmström

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Fair enough. That comes from that he originally was named Jason Winston George on Imdb then someone changed it to just Jason George, just like Jeff Wood (Jeffery Wood), Chasen Parker (Chase Parker), Tracy Melchior (Tracy Lindsey Melchior) and Jennifer Banko (Jennifer Banko-Stewart). That should absolutely be corrected.
(Edited)
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Peter, Champion

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Hi,

The cast entries you are talking about can be edited/deleted if you click edit on the series page.

Whether delete requests will be approved is a different matter, but if all episodes are accounted for and these roles are not there, I think it would make sense to remove them.

If you are able to make the submission you can post the reference number here so an IMDb editor can have a look.
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Andreas Palmström

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I tried that a few years ago without any luck (guessed it was because i tried to delete them directly from the full cast and crew list) but I guess I can make another try.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Andreas Palmström, just my five cents: if someone is listed on IMDb as actor in some title, but you can't find appearance and credit, after re-checking both main titles and end credits of the episode it might be a good idea to add attribute "(uncredited)" to the role, rather then delete it. And it always needs further re-checking, especially since there are cases like Marcia Wallace on "Columbo", who has a "credit only" as "Woman" in one 1971 episode, although she actually appears in another 1971 episode, uncredited. 

That said, situation like Rufus might as well be someone's misguided attempt: In many TV series there are uncredited background/semi-background characters who actually have names if you pay attention but might slip past through you. Bobbin Bergstrom who was an on-set medical advisor on "House" also appeared occasionally as a nurse and sum of those occasions is 134, more then some of the main cast members on the show. Chances are that fewer people will remember her in one episode. Certainly took me several seasons to notice her.    
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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He did not listen. He has put in a deletion. IMDb approved it.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I remember Bobbie

Bobbin advising Hugh Laurie House as to how to perform a medical procedure season 8

(Edited)
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Peter, Champion

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To Nikolay's point, it is not actually possible to add "uncredited" to a series-level credit in the update form. It is rejected out of hand, at least when the series has episode coverage. To add "uncredited" you would have to choose episodes as well.
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Andreas Palmström

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Nikolay: Uncredited is to be used when a person appeared in ab episode but didn't recieved credit. This is not the case with these four as their character names isn't mentioned either, at any point.

Credit only doesn't work either since only the main cast were credited in this show.
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Eboy

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To me, the attribute ”(uncredited)” also means that the person is more-or-less ”confirmed” appearing on the film/series. Just not credited. So I wouldn’t use it ”just in case”. In some ways ”(uncredited)” attribute kinda confirms that, yes, this actor appears in the program.


In my opinion you submit ”delete” requests when you know the actor (how he/she looks like on the screen) and therefore know that he/she doesn’t appear in the episode/film. Of course the actual credits should also be double checked (could it be ”(credit only)” situation).


Like I said, a tricky case.
(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You could have closed the barn door.
2 actors, and 2 actresses, have you to thank.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Your Contribution History | Contribution #190328-103217-976000


(Edited)
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Contribution #190328-105023-489000



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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Occam's Razor Peter.



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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I also find it odd that the original poster removed credits and you have nothing to say about that whatsoever.
He is to be what? Believed. And I'm not?
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Peter, Champion

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There is a difference between removing series-level credits which turn out not actually to be credited and removing episode-level credits which are already listed as uncredited.

Andreas seems to have good knowledge of the show, and he has already cited IMDb's own guidelines on auditing credits.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I agree with his knowledge. But his reasoning is what was at issue Peter.
Those credits were only determined by him to be invalid because of two flawed criteria. A) He did not see them anywhere in the 500+ episodes. If you don't know where to look because they have no episode reference, how can you make a 100% absolute call on it? B) Since they were on a series level they must be removed. They were valid and approved at the time that series level inclusion was allowed, but he retroactively applied today's rule to remove them.
\
Conclusion: He could not 100% be sure that they were not in any episode. If he could not prove it, than he should not delete them. He should have shifted or submitted corrections and had them tagged with the attribute uncredited. Now that they are gone completely, he will not be able to fix it because the episode(s) that they are attached to is unknown.

2nd conclusion: You have just made me retype what I have already typed in this post.
You pick on me incessantly. Could you please not interject without completely reading the complete post in the future.
Thanks,
Cheers.

P.S.
I asked you a question that you have not answered.
Would you please answer it.
Thanks again.
And I want you to understand this, I'm about protecting the databases accuracy and the the people in the industry equally. Taking away a credit that has any possibility of being valid just is not right. He should have done the uncredited.
And the question................He is to be what? Believed. And I'm not?
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Peter, Champion

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That was my reply to your question. Your edits are of a different nature, so I had a different opinion about them. And don't feel forced to repeat yourself on my account.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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You removed credits that had photos.
Just because you missed them while watching!
I explained that facial recognition can be almost impossible.
Especially with lighting and if they are slightly out of frame so as to partially obscure a full face profile.
No one, and I do mean no one is that good.
There are many credits that are uncredited on this program where the actor or actress in question has no on file IMDb photo. Their uncredited credits should be removed. You cannot verify their inclusion. You should remove those credits.
I have done a couple for you.
Please do the rest if you like.
After all the database needs to be accurate.
The ones I removed above are a start, I hope you do the right thing and finish the work.
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Andreas Palmström

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Ed Jones: I can provide still photos from the scenes these four had in SB? Can you do the same?

Lucy Rodriguez: (Rose)

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2yn0zk3.jpg


Robert F. Harrison (Jason)

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2q06l90.jpg

Mark Edgar Stephens (Francois)

http://oi65.tinypic.com/xeg6du.jpg

Gregory White (Montsenior)

http://oi65.tinypic.com/5chxt5.jpg

I can even narrate what role their characters had in the show. Can you do the same?

Also. I didn't just "missed" them while watching. I went thhrough the whole show JUST to spot all guest characters so in every episode that was what I were most focused on.

IF the persons I deleted indeed should turned out to be in the show I will personally be happy to include them on their episodes again.



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Andreas Palmström

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For submissions in general yes, to add photos, no.


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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I Just added one for your fave title. Do the work.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Andreas Palmström you only need to have Title Scorecard or IMDb Pro to add pictures which will appear on person's IMDb page and with IMDb Pro they won't appear on the title as well, as Title Scorecard is more studio-oriented. 

Either way, images added through usual means will still be appropriately tagged on IMDb pages if one tags them, so they will appear in character galleries, accessed through hyperlink on the role.   
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Jeorj Euler

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An important warning about Title Scorecard image uploads is that an undesirable image can wind up becoming the special placeholder image (which shows up copped in its thumbnail form) on the page of somebody tagged as being in it, and as long as the person is within frame as far as the thumbnail goes, the choice of image will not changed per IMDb policy. So, please be careful.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Jeorj, I looked at this guys photo collection of NO PROOF photos. They are not big enough file size wise to upload. Plus they have only the actor and no other point of reference. IE: another cast regular in them. They are proof of nothing.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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At the bottom right there is a box that says add a photo
It brings up this side box


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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Andreas Palmström

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For submissions in general yes, to add photos, no.

Let's say your credits says "John Smith" in Movie "A". A dialogue in the movie referred you to John Smith. Then there is no reason to doubt you played John Smith even if your credits says "uncredited".

But none of these four character names were ever mentioned and no one who looked like them appeared in the show. That's the difference.

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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Added another

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Andreas Palmström

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Ok. It seems like there are different requries to add photos to a title as to add photos to a cast page.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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But none of these four character names were ever mentioned and no one who looked like them appeared in the show. That's the difference.

Says you........
For the last time.
You cannot know for sure.
Read Nikolay Yerioman's Reply above.
If you cannot admit to having a human foible than you are saying you are perfect and make zero mistakes.
NO ONE is perfect.
Admit that you are capable of mistakes.
I make em all the time.
Right here for all to see too.
So is it possible for you to err?

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Andreas Palmström

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Of course I make misstakes, but not in this case. I rewatched the entire show JUST to find as many guest cast members I could. My entire focus was on that and still is as there are many guest actors which I don't know the name of but I'm keeping an eye out in all other shows/films from the 90s/early 2000nd and see if I recognize someone.
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Ed Jones (XLIX)

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Of course I make misstakes, but not in this case.
You can't spell mistakes! But you made none. Not in this case! Really.
Not repeating myself any further.
Not worth it.
Logical thought process not in play here.