Fake Stunt Credits In Westerns

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There seems to be a problem with a contributor over the last year or so and I've noticed this more and more.

For years I would document the barflies, cowhands, and other people who were primarily working bit part / extra in shows and movies. Once in a blue moon they might have be called on to do a stunt credit or whatever but generally speaking, they were collecting paychecks on their appearance.


There seems to be a contributor who has innocently taken these appearances and who assumes that they were stuntmen in the film. 

Prime point, John Barton.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0059177/?ref_=nv_sr_4?ref_=nv_sr_4


John Barton was called upon to double Leo Carillo in Horror Island because Carillo played a guy with a peg leg. In real life, Barton had only 1 leg and would frequently work as an background actor or bit roles in courtroom scenes and bar scenes but Barton had trouble even walking no less appear 9 other times as a stuntman.


Tex Holden is another cowboy with 1 leg. I highly doubt he did any stunts. He had trouble mounting a horse. He's listed as a stuntman in The Winning Team. It's a movie about baseball. I don't think you would have a one legged guy sliding into the base.


https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390273/?ref_=tt_rv


It's also very suspicious that a lot of these movies mainly list people like Holden, Barton, Jack Tornek, and all the other non-stuntman as stuntmen but they really don't list anybody else but the prolifically known stuntmen. If whomever is submitting them is going off notes, then there should be other cowboys listed and not just the guy playing a barfly or riding in a posse or driving a wagon all of which were covered under SEG guide lines at the time. 

It just seems like a contributor has meant well but the thousands of stunt credits he's probably submitted are mostly fake. 


Phil




















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Phillip Arnold

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Posted 1 month ago

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Will, Official Rep

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Hi Phillip,

Thanks for your message. It doesn't sound to me like these credits are fake as such, more that they have been classified as stunts based on the type of performance the person provided within the title. Stunts is quite a loose term and can refer to a multitude of physical feats. Do you know the exact performances of the individuals within the titles mentioned?

Thanks,
Will 
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Phillip Arnold

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Yes I do. I added most of the actor credits. John Barton has trouble even walking with 1 leg. That's why a majority of his credits are as a courtroom spectator. 

Jimmie Booth was a friend of mine and he would tell you that he never got any sort of stunt credit nor was a a double on anything more then driving wagons and doing posse scenes. I put him down years ago as a double (he was viable) for a couple of people but he couldn't even earn a living doing it so he had to do other jobs. If he was a stuntman like his new adds he wouldn't have had to get a regular job pulling gates at the racetracks. (I submitted his IMDb biography with him)

Many many years ago it wasn't uncommon for cowboys to appear in the bar scenes and just collect a paycheck doing that and posse scenes. That's how they made their living. Jack Tornek, Chick Hannan, and many others would once in a blue moon double for people like Tornek doubled for a Roy Barcroft in an episode of Annie Oakley riding into a banner but the standards of yesteryear and this year are vastly different.

In the 1950s it wasn't uncommon for a production to have 2 or 3 or maybe 5 stuntmen if they didn't have much of a budget and I promise you whomever has been adding these credits doesn't know these people but they are guessing that since they appeared as a barfly or a posse rider or a townsman for a day, they are assuming they are doing stunts for the film. 

Cap Somers was a prolific extra and could occasionally do a fight scene but he was out of work so much that he would toss rocks at the windows of casting offices looking for extras in films when they wouldn't give him work.   

The posse scenes were covered under screen extras guild and they even were negotiated by SAG in payment and terms and included in the pay breakdown. It's just somebody who took a lot of the credits I added (you can check the history of them) and assumes they did stunt work.

In 1954s Riding Shotgun, John Barton was standing in a group of 50 townsman just raising his hands. If he wasn't sitting, he was leaning against something typically. Yet magically his now has 11 stunt credits.

All you have to do is ask whomever submitting these to produce a call sheet listing them as stuntmen or doubles or even just ask them to produce screen shots of Barton in the 10 films doing stunts or Tornek doing stunts beyond the ones I submitted.

Phil
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Will, Official Rep

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Hi Phil,

Ok thank you for the additional information. Please submit deletes against the credits and provide the submission references here and I can make sure these get approved.

Thanks,
Will
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Phillip Arnold

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Will.

Since you made this comment, the person has added another fake credit to John Barton's stunt total. Whomever it is means well but I suspect they are adding a lot of fake credits to people who weren't stuntmen during these productions who just had one or so stunt credits in their career. I suspect they've done this to a lot of people/screen extras guild members and some sort of intervention should be done.

I think whomever it is means well but they don't quite understand that people like John Barton, Tex Holden, Cap Somers, and several others were primarily extras and were not actual stuntman.,

I just checked the movie Gun the Man Down. (1958) Jack Young was the only stuntman on the film. I knew Mr. Young and he mentioned how he was just totally shocked because he was the only stuntman hired for the movie. Jack Tornek and George Denormand were just extras in the movie.


Phil
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Phillip Arnold

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All they are doing is watching these movies on the western channel and putting them down as stuntmen. The Barton credit that just appeared is for a movie called "Frenchie" and it was just shown on the western channel this week and since I previously put Barton down as an extra in Frenchie, this person just added him for stunts in the movie. They are literally just adding random people they don't know because they think they are stuntmen.
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Hi Phil -

Thanks for the additional information, as Will requested above, please submit the credit deletion requests for these incorrect credits, then post those submission reference numbers here and our staff can take a look at removing them.
(Edited)
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Phillip Arnold

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It will take a bit because I'll have to sift through this mess. This is how bad it's messed up.  Somebody should find out whose submitting these and ask the guy for proof that they did stunts in the films and he won't be able to give any. Somebody like Chet Brandenburg, he had a connection at Hal Roach studios so they would give him a bit of a break and let him do a stunt but a vast majority of his work was in the background or as a stand-in. Sadly every credit these marked for deletion is fake and that's probably the tip of the iceberg. I should know, I added their acting credits in these films.

190821-150947-356000

190819-160745-651000 

190819-160444-387000

190819-152416-379000 

190821-152435-103000 

190819-150419-589000 

190819-150255-702000 

190819-150032-017000 

190821-151347-815000 

190821-151816-806000 


190821-154603-586000 

190821-153937-317000

190821-151347-815000   (Here's the one for the recently added credits to Frenchie) You should be able to track down who is doing this through these movies credits and tell him to please stop.



























(Edited)
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Michelle, Official Rep

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Hi Phillip -

Thanks for posting the submission information, these stunt credits are pending removal from the site, I have also reached out to the original contributor to confirm our actions.  Thanks again!
(Edited)