All 2nd and 3rd Place Awards Recently Defaulted To Nominations. Is This Being Addressed?

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I recently noticed all 2nd and 3rd place film awards are now being presented as nominations. Is this issue being addressed?
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Seth Kozak

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Posted 2 years ago

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Steve Crook, Champion

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What else can they be?
The one who came first is the winner, those who came 2nd & 3rd are nominations

Steve
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Seth Kozak

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Hmm...I wasn't expecting that Steve. I'm not sure why you'd start out with "what else can they be?," as if Second Place Awards and Third Place Awards have never occurred to you as Awards that people actually Win and receive the hardware for - much like the Olympics, etc.

I'm truly trying to respect the question and look past the jab at my intelligence, further putting the onus on me to explain that nowhere in history has a firmly-established (Awarded) Second Place Winner gone in the record books as just a nominee –that’s simply inaccurate.

IMDb is obviously a database (by name), therefore a record, and seeks accuracy and completeness. It has long recognized all winners of its qualifying fests/competitions on their respective IMDb awards pages. Therefore, it is a legitimate question to ask why the change? What has occurred to reason this differently now and change precedent? Why reduce the completeness of the record? Is this just an unresolved glitch as the site goes through revisions?
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Peter, Champion

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I don't think what you see is new; look at the Related Conversations for this post. If you add an award and choose a rank other than 1st, it will not be treated as a win.

A distinction could be made between a runner-up for an award (which are sometimes announced) and a winner of an official second-place award. The Grand Prix at Cannes or the Silver Bear at the Berlinale could be considered high-profile second place awards. These awards are listed as wins (rank=1).
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Steve Crook, Champion

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Sorry Seth,
No jabs were intended at your intelligence. Just genuine queries.

As Peter said, there can usually only be one winner, everyone else is a nominee

Which awards have been changed and what did they used to say?

    Steve
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Seth Kozak

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No problem Peter, and I do appreciate you engaging my concern. 

S: "there can usually only be one winner..."

I agree. By volume, most film contests select only one winner. Where there is only one winner, there is just one winner. My issue is when there ARE multiple winners. It is important to any award-winner to retain such an earned distinction by which they've officially been recognized.

Just because the BAFTAs selects one winner doesn't reduce one's 2nd place award at Vail, WorldFest Houston, or Las Vegas to a nomination. There is no correlation or influence between contests that choose to select one winner and contests that choose to select more than one winner. 

IMDb has a process of qualifying film festivals and contests. Of these, many do officially recognize (in various cases) 1st-5th place winners, Runners-up, Honorable mentions, etc. - all are earned accolades distinct and superior to the remaining pool of finalists.

S: "Which awards have been changed and what did they used to say?"

In my case I have had five 2nd and 3rd place awards reduced (last month) to now reflect nominations on my awards page. These have always been presented accurately as 2nd and 3rd place awards, respectively. The problem is if I'm promoting myself for screenwriting work and claim I've won X-amount of script awards, one cannot verify my claim on the well-respected Internet Movie Database anymore without calling me a liar.  

Thank you for your response.
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Seth Kozak

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@ Peter

P: "I don't think what you see is new; look at the Related Conversations for this post. If you add an award and choose a rank other than 1st, it will not be treated as a win."

Yes, it's new for me, and I'm on IMDb almost daily. My IMDb view has always been set to the old view, "long form," and has retained the accurate award placements, as I originally submitted and were independently verified by IMDb staff - via links to official festival results pages. The IMDb long-form view has just been fully terminated (I can't access now) as of the past two weeks. 

Also, as it is true that the "new" (current) IMDb page format has been "presenting/categorizing" 2nd place and 3rd place wins as nominations (on one's profile page) for about the past two years, it has always retained the "old/long form" awards pages (remained unchanged) to present a filmmaker's detailed award successes. This too has just changed in the past couple weeks and has stopped accurately presenting "2nd Place," or "3rd place" wins in the corresponding awards box.  

P: "A distinction could be made between a runner-up for an award (which are sometimes announced) and a winner of an official second-place award."

I completely agree! This is precisely the issue I'm trying to resolve (which frankly affects thousands of filmmakers). Many IMDb-qualified film festivals or competitions do announce official second place, and sometimes third place winners, etc. These winners are called up on stage, given medals, trophies, cash prizes etc., and recorded as official 2nd/3rd place winners on the festival's website. Filmmakers commonly put these corresponding winner laurels on their posters. These filmmakers would also be justifiably socialized by their agents as award-winning filmmakers; they have officially won film awards, albeit not 1st place. I'm not claiming to make-up a second place finish for a contest that only recognizes the 1st place winner. To argue that, how could one know if he or she were legitimately second if the competition didn't identify them as such? 

On the other side, many IMDb-qualified film festivals or competitions do recognize only the 1st place winner. In these cases, all others who made it to the finals stage simply finish as a finalist/nominee. Some film festivals (e.g Beverly Hills Film Festival's Golden Palm Award for best screenplay) have up to 150 finalists - and only 1 winner; but also identify a 1st runner-up and a second runner-up. Others, such as the Page Awards have 10 finalists, out of which there are official 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place Page Award Winners (per each competition category nonetheless). The top three prize winners are winners. They each won an award of a specified value, as established and presented by the authority of the contest creators. Who should take that away from them, and for what reasoning?

In examples such as these, there are still hundreds and sometimes thousands of competitors who were weeded-out in previous rounds and don't even achieve the finalist status. These subjective contests are tough as it is. No one who achieves a silver medal would intend to communicate their hard-earned official 2nd place award finish as simply a "finalist," a misleading distinction that could imply "one of the top 150." There is significant difference between a Second Place Prize Winner and top 150 finisher. As professionals we rely on awards as one measure to communicate the strength of our talents for future work. 

Thanks for your response.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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I've just re-checked some of the awards I have added myself for international Irpen Film Festival and I can confirm that it is a problem. That short film won a second place and that was officially announced and commemorated. It was not a nomination but a win, so I would like to know how to correct that.  
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Peter, Champion

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I agree this looks like a problem: the 2nd place ranking isn't displayed even though it is part of the raw data.
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Seth Kozak

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Thanks again for looking into this Peter.

Here is a film festival page for the 20th Annual Indie Gathering International film Festival (IMDb-qualifying). To back my point, I have three short script wins on this page: Short Comedy - 2nd Place ("Ticking Time Burger"); Short Comedy - 3rd Place ("Strangers on a Plane"); and, Short Drama-Comedy - 3rd Place ("The Debrief"). These wins have only recently been presented by IMDb as Nominations (you can verify on my page). The larger pool of "nominees/finalists" who were not selected to receive the official awards are not mentioned on this "2015 Winners" Page.  
(Edited)
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Steve, Official Rep

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Hi all,

I've reached out to our tech teams for more information on this, thanks in advance for your patience.


- Steve
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Seth Kozak

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Thank you Steve! I appreciate your efforts to address this. 
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Steve, Official Rep

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Hi all,

Following up here. We made a decision some time ago to not list 2nd or 3rd place finishers as winners. You can confirm this for the 2012 Irpen FF here:

http://www.imdb.com/event/ev0003947/2012/1/

I apologize for any inconvenience this may be.


- Steve
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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That's a bit sad, although understandable. 

Also presicely the reason why some film festivals have honorary diplomas. 
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Peter, Champion

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Steve, whether or not a second place is counted as a win, the data point that it was a second place should still be displayed on the award pages.

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cartman_1337

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That's a bit sad, although understandable. 
No, like many other IMDb decisions lately, I don't find it understandable at all. Not all movie festivals and awards are the same, and some do indeed make a point of honoring more than one movie per category, with specific 2nd and 3rd place awards, which elevate them above the other nominees. As a database that seeks to be as accurate and complete as possible, suddenly deciding to ignore the rules and honors of certain awards is anything but understandable, nor is it accurate or complete.
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Nikolay Yeriomin (Mykola Yeromin), Champion

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Partially understandable, I mean. Considering that was a long-established rule I don't have a full gasp of removing it either... 
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Peter, Champion

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The idea that awards entries with rank 2 or 3 are not wins is not new. Consider this section from the old awards walkthrough:


Getting the "ranking" of an award wrong
Please note that "ranking" is just an arbitrary term to refer to the fact that some awards may have the placing(s) listed. However this is not the rule. In almost all cases you either should enter "1" for winning the award or special mention or "nom" to indicate a nomination.
Quite a few submitters i.e. enter '2' as the award's ranking, because the according award is the "second best" award at the according event, the silver award or special jury prize or whatever it may be called. This is wrong, please only enter '2' for any award, if that award actually was not won, no matter whether it is the Grand Prize, the Special Jury Award, the Silver Award or even a Honorable Mention.
In other words, if a Silver Award was won, enter '1' to indicate the win even though the Gold Award was not won. Enter '2' only for cases where to indicate a "second place Silver Award". The same goes for every other award listed in the IMDb awards section.

https://help.imdb.com/article/contrib...
(Edited)
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Seth Kozak

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"The idea that awards entries with rank 2 or 3 are not wins is not new. Consider this..."

Sure, that idea may have been tucked away somewhere in writing but it can not change the fact that 2nd place and 3rd place awards have been prominently displayed as 2nd and 3rd place wins on IMDb awards pages for well over a decade. Hence, I'm only raising the issue now because the reality has just changed on IMDb's awards pages in the past few weeks. Therefore, this is a fresh issue to address for the thousands who have been officially awarded 2nd and 3rd place film awards at IMDb-qualifying fests/contests but have just been arbitrated and reduced to nominees

Moving onto your explanation, I'm understanding that IMDb has simply changed the way one needs to add awards for 2nd place prizes, not that it's denying/refusing the legitimacy of an official award itself. Therefore, in following what you articulated, the award's value must be reflected in the awards name, such as "2nd Place Bonehead Award, or 3rd Place Indie Gathering Award" and then select "1" for a win.

I get that. But, even still, IMDb presents 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and nom options in the drop down menu, which had always been used for the purposes one would expect. Now, since we are reinventing the wheel, I have to ask why would IMDb have a 2nd or 3rd place in the drop down menu when it is assumed the only possible selections are 1st or a nomination?

Secondly, since the selection of 2nd/3rd placements has just become obsolete, and numerous award winners would need to chance their award status to reflect a win again, how does one change the award itself? When I go to correct the award, all information points are available to change/edit, except for the name of the award itself. How does one modify the name to identify it as a Silver award or 2nd place award?  

Thanks.



 

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